Woman warned after scaring off intruders with knife

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I was reading an article recently, in which an American was visiting a friend in London, and at some point the American took out a pocket knife to open some sort of package and the English host blanched and said, "OMG! put that away - you could be arrested for having that!"

Well, he should have used a box-cutter--no possible threat or harm could come of that.... :rolleyes:

Taking a general view, in order to oppose something, we have to know how its proponents think--"get into their heads" if you will. The fundamental belief we're fighting here is the moral equivalence of all things--a sick and perverted form of "liberty," as some would consider it. While one of the tenets of such a philosophy is that people are allowed to do pretty much anything they want, no matter how depraved it might be to those with traditional moral values, obviously violence and murder are still abhorred, as are the instruments that are often used to deliver them, namely guns. The problem is that there is no moral distinction between the victim and perpetrator of a crime. If you are forced to kill a bad guy in self-defense, his death is exactly as tragic as yours would have been, only you're the bad guy now because you did the killing, not him (furthermore you premeditated it by deliberately arming yourself). I know it's not easy, but try to see that this is for some a deeply held, quasi-religious kind of belief.

This goes hand-in-hand with the belief that ordinary people are not responsible for their actions and should not be trusted with responsibility--that's what the government is for. If somebody wrongs somebody else, then it is all of society that failed to make him/her a better person ("It takes a village"), and if victims are harmed or die then it is the failure of the government for not protecting them by enforcing the laws better or more quickly. Natural laws such as the right of self-defense need not apply because they are part of a "savage" world that these people are trying to leave behind.

The only thing that does not enjoy the "protection" of moral equivalence from all responsibility is people like us. Unless we have a badge from the government or at minimum are employed as private security for somebody else, those who exhibit independence and self-reliance, and stubbornly refuse to buy into the "enlightened" (their word) philosophy that I've just described are considered dangerous wild cards, maybe even "evil." The latter is not a word that the "enlightened" ones would ever use in speech, since for example the typical serial rapist is merely a victim of society who can't think for himself, but nevertheless that's how they view those who take responsibility for their actions, as well as the safety of themselves and their families into their own hands. We're not viewed as a permanent problem, though, as they think it will someday be possible to indoctrinate everybody from a young enough age, but while we're here we exist outside of the "ideal" society which they strive to create, which makes it all the more imperative that they take our guns away now rather than after they've finished reforming society (that and the "fact" that guns inspire unthinking people to kill others when they otherwise would not have...right... :rolleyes: ).
 
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Both the UK and Australia have gone way crazy about personal defense. I'm not sure what happened in Britain, but in Australia there was an incident where a guy with a high-powered rifle went all sniper in a bell tower and killed a lot of people. After that, they made gun ownership highly restricted, and as a result they are experiencing tremendous waves of crime.

The incident was the Port Arthur Massacre which some idiot (Who got his guns illegally from a source that stole the firearm since he legally was not fit to hold a gun license (The firearm were an AR-15 and an L1A1 SLR)). The guy actually stormed into a cafe, parking lot, bed and breakfast and shot dead 35 people.

Also, I would like to say in Australia's defence that we are not as bad as england and that you could get away with self defence depending on the circumstance.

Read this....
Is killing an intruder murder?

Article from: The Advertiser

JOHN GOLDBERG

September 20, 2009 11:30pm

IT is two o'clock in the morning. You are woken from a sound sleep by a noise coming from another part of the house.

You can hear someone moving around. It must be an intruder who has broken into your home. What is he after? What do you do?

Fortunately, you keep a loaded shotgun in your bedroom. You pick it up and quickly move to the source of the sound, the lounge room.

You turn on the light.

The intruder is a man that you have never seen before. He is about to steal your TV.

You raise the shotgun and fire twice, once at his head and once at his chest. He falls down dead.

You dial 000 and the police rush to the scene of the crime.

Now, here comes a little quiz. What is the crime?

Is it the intruder breaking into your house or is it you killing him - or is it both?

The first answer is easy. The intruder committed the serious crime of criminal trespass.

The answer to the second part of the question lies in section 15C of the Criminal Law Consolidation Act, a piece of legislation that has only been in force in South Australia since 2003 and which is known as the defence against home invasion.

What this says is that provided you can prove on the balance of probabilities that you genuinely believed a home invasion was being committed or had just been committed, then even though you shot the intruder dead you are not guilty of any crime unless the prosecution is able to prove beyond reasonable doubt that you did not genuinely believe that your conduct was necessary and reasonable for a defensive purpose.

In other words, in order to get a conviction, the prosecution must prove that in your mind at the time, you did not see a need to defend yourself.

It follows that if you remain silent, the prosecution task is almost impossible.

It does not matter that the home invader was not carrying a weapon or was simply looking for food.


As the occupier of your own home, you have a defence, even if your conduct was utterly disproportionate to the perceived threat.

All you have to prove is that you genuinely believed that the intruder was committing a home invasion.

When this particular law was introduced into Parliament, Attorney-General Michael Atkinson said it would enhance the legal rights of South Australian householders to protect themselves from intruders.

It does that, but in addition it gives permission to any householder to use deadly force against an intruder without committing an offence as long as the householder genuinely believes that the person is an intruder and as long as the prosecution is unable to prove that the householder did not genuinely believe that killing the intruder was necessary and reasonable for a defensive purpose.

By the way, you are not restricted to a shotgun.

It is fine to use a knife or a cricket bat.

You lose the defence, however, if you are high on drugs, your home has been invaded because of your own criminal activities or the intruder is a police officer acting in the course of duty.

Im John Golberg is the president of the Law Society of South Australia.

However, he was corrected a few weeks after by the police firearms branch that having a loaded shotgun lying around and using it is commiting a few firearms offences. I believe the offences leads upto 4 years in jail or a $20,000 fine and you would most likely loose your firearms license. However, you wont get charged for manslaughter or murder.

Oh and even though that is 1 state, the rest of the other states I believe the intruders have to be armed to get away with self defence if you killed them (and that you did not intended on killing them).
 
you could get away with self defence

That phrase speaks volumes to how thoroughly compromised a culture can become when even an advocate of the natural right to self defense considers it "getting away" with it.
 
It's hard to believe now, but before WWI the English were among the best armed people in the world, with rifle marksmanship taught as a standard part of Public School (in the English sense) education.

My school had a range and an armory (This is only 20 years ago). We had a great shooting team with the cadets (ROTC type thing). We even had some Bren guns we used on exercise. Those were the days, i learned to shoot at school.
 
Wingsof- I know it's not you but, how can you be found justified to kill an intruder, but found guilty of using the weapon. That would be like here in the states, shooting a burgler, intruder, etc, being justified in the shooting. But then being prosecuted for firing a weapon inside the city limits. Which is a no no(discharging a weapon) in most city's. Is that what you are referencing?
That line of thinking, which I'm sure isn't in any of our heads, is madenning. How can you have the right to defend your self, but be guilty of using the weapon at hand to do it. Must the force you use be equal to the force that is used against you? Ie, hand against hand, knife against knife, etc? To some this may sound reasonable, but not to me. I say use what's at hand. the criminals arent' playing fair or abiding by the law, why should you have to "play fair"
 
ozarkgunner said:
...how can you be found justified to kill an intruder, but found guilty of using the weapon. That would be like here in the states, shooting a burgler, intruder, etc, being justified in the shooting. But then being prosecuted for firing a weapon inside the city limits....
Talk to Bernie Goetz, the 1984 Subway Vigilante. He defended himself with an unlicensed handgun in a New York subway from some armed robbers. He was tried for various assault related crimes and the weapons charge. He was acquitted of the assaults (the jury found his use of force to be justified self defense); but he was convicted and went to jail on the weapons charge (and he was hammered in a subsequent civil suit).

Every ordinance of which I'm aware prohibiting discharging a gun in city limits, or such, includes and express exception for if the gun is fired in justified self defense.
 
Wingsof- I know it's not you but, how can you be found justified to kill an intruder, but found guilty of using the weapon. That would be like here in the states, shooting a burgler, intruder, etc, being justified in the shooting. But then being prosecuted for firing a weapon inside the city limits. Which is a no no(discharging a weapon) in most city's. Is that what you are referencing?
That line of thinking, which I'm sure isn't in any of our heads, is madenning. How can you have the right to defend your self, but be guilty of using the weapon at hand to do it. Must the force you use be equal to the force that is used against you? Ie, hand against hand, knife against knife, etc? To some this may sound reasonable, but not to me. I say use what's at hand. the criminals arent' playing fair or abiding by the law, why should you have to "play fair"

No, what I am saying is you can use any force against an intruder, however you will be charged with firearms offences if you do. The firearms offences I am reffering to is one of the is having a gun lying around, not locked in its safe will incur a $2500 fine. The other one is using your firearm for other than it's intended purpose (e.g. target shooting, hunting). You pretty much have to have an endorsement on your gun license that says you can use it for self defence, which I believe is IMPOSSIBLE to get.

However, if you hacked them up with a samurai sword, machete, knife, axe, etc. to death, as long as you felt it was justifiable, you were not on drugs, you were not doing any criminal activity and it wasn't a police officer, you will be excused from any murder/homicide/assault charges.
 
Wingsof- I know it's not you but, how can you be found justified to kill an intruder, but found guilty of using the weapon.
That was EXACTLY the case in Illinois until they passed a law to prevent you from being prosecuted for lawfully defending yourself in your home with a gun possessed in violation of a gun ban. Obama OF COURSE voted against it when he was in the Illinois legislature.
 
Uh can we all wrap our heads around the most unsettling part of this article:

[police] informed her that she should not have used a knife to scare off the youths because carrying an "offensive weapon" – even in her own home – was illegal.

Let's set aside gun ownership in Britain for a second: taken at face value, we're talking about a society where apparently one doesn't have the right to carry a kitchen knife if an trespasser might define that knife as "offensive." To me, this sails beyond the right to bear arms, and settles into my rights to do things like slice bread in my own home lest I "offend" someone trying to steal my garden hoe. The right to bear arms is one thing, but this appears to set up a condition where my right to be secure in my own home may depend on the perceptions of the very persons who might be trespassing in that space and there to steal or do harm.

To me this goes beyond the right to bear a gun, based on what this cop said, in Britain I might not even have the right to bear a paring knife. Worse yet, it might depend on how big a weenie the trespasser is.

Her ridiculous notion that , "...lethal violence even in self defense only engenders more violence and that gun control should override any personal need for safety...." is probably widely held in liberal circles.

I would fairly say this might be a widely held notion in "ANTI-GUN" liberal circles. But the generalization that it's probably widely held in general in liberal circles is seems to jump to some hasty conclusions in my experience.

The generally held view among liberals that "violence begets more violence" is as much based on historical experience as is the notion among conservatives that "an armed society is a polite society." These and their derivatives are platitudes, based partly on experiences, and held to by people who want support for their ideology. They can both be shown to be true and false and should both be taken with a grain of salt by all "sides."
 
The generally held view among liberals that "violence begets more violence" is as much based on historical experience as is the notion among conservatives that "an armed society is a polite society."
I'm a liberal and believe that violence SHOULD beget violence. If you make yourself an imminent danger to my life and limb, I'm going to stop you by whatever means necessary, and turning the other cheek isn't going to be one of those means.

The problem is not people believing that "violence begets violence". It's IDIOTS and MONSTERS believing that AGGRESSIVE violence SHOULDN'T beget DEFENSIVE violence. At the outermost extreme of insanity, this is reflected in the assertion of some that the Holocaust should NOT have been fought with violence and that those who did, such as Mordechai Anilewicz and the Bielsky brothers are deserving of condemnation for having done so.

There's a certain segment of society which identifies more with Ted Bundy and Rheinhardt Heydrich than with their victims. There used to be a woman in Middleburg Heights, Ohio who liked to call local talkshows to trumpet her support for various serial killers, child molesters and the like. ALL of her venom was reserved for the victims and their survivors. You can't reason with someone like that, just expose them to public contempt and humiliation.
 
Hertfordshire Police have categorically denied that they warned Myleen Klass about having a knife in her house. They advised her that it was not wise to tackle the yobs since they weren't in her house and they could have used it against her. This type of advice is issued by your cops as well.

And for the record: it is not illegal to have a knife in your house and you are quite entitled to use it , or a gun if you are luckily enough to have it out of the gun safe at the time, to kill someone if your life is in danger . If these thugs had entered her house and threatened her life she could have used the knife to kill them both. It would be up to a judge to decide whether or not she had used ‘reasonable force’.

It is also interesting to note the Myleen Klass is just about to host a new TV show and no doubt this bit of publicity will certainly help with the ratings.
 
I'm a liberal and believe that violence SHOULD beget violence. If you make yourself an imminent danger to my life and limb, I'm going to stop you by whatever means necessary, and turning the other cheek isn't going to be one of those means.

Good answer--there is absolutely no moral equivalence between aggressive and defensive violence. As far as I'm concerned, the more defensive violence there is to help balance aggressive violence, the better things will be.
 
They advised her that it was not wise to tackle the yobs since they weren't in her house and they could have used it against her.

Is it me, or does the police over there in the UK seem to be obssessed with deeming that using a knife in self defence ends up with the victim being stabbed with their own knife?
 
Is it me, or does the police over there in the UK seem to be obssessed with deeming that using a knife in self defence ends up with the victim being stabbed with their own knife?
No more so than the police here are obsessed with deeming that using a gun in self-defense ends up with the victim being shot with their own gun. Every time somebody tries that dodge, I just ask them for an example which does NOT involve an LEO who tried to subdue a suspect with less than lethal force.

The solution to an assailant trying to grab a woman's firearm is for her to shoot him with it until he's no longer a threat.
 
I'm a liberal and believe that violence SHOULD beget violence. If you make yourself an imminent danger to my life and limb, I'm going to stop you by whatever means necessary, and turning the other cheek isn't going to be one of those means.

Great, that's why I used the word "generally" and not the word "exclusively."
 
Regardless of the words used by the police to “admonish” her, the fact that she was admonished in any way indicates that England is off its rocker.

Of course, we have some of that style of “admonishing” right here in the Colonies.

DC300a said he had a room for rent if she wants to come here. I have one for $100 a week she can have, and if I can scrape up a few more dollars I’ll pay even more than that.
 
The reason why self-defense is frowned upon by the statist is because it is seen as a challenge to the government’s ‘monopoly on force.’ The ability to go about armed and use violence is what separates officials of the state from commoners like you. Those in uniform very jealously guard this privilege. Weapons, no matter how rudimentary, are seen as symbols of defiance by the statist. People have been conditioned all their lives to believe that the worst possible thing that they can do is to “take the law into your own hands” and that only the police have the wisdom, the courage and the judgment to use deadly force.
 
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