Wondering about a Spanish Jukar rifle.
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DoubleDeuce 1
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What type of locks do the rifles have?
I would check the barrels for obvious signs of abuse or neglect, pitting or rust. Especially check the barrels for bulges. You can run your hand down the exterior of the barrel and maybe feel for a bulge, or look down the bore and you will see a ring around the inside of the bore. Those aren't too good to have. It might be the previous owner goofed something and bulged the barrel. Run a patch down the barrel and see what you get to come out. If they are percussion rifles, look for rust or pitting around the nipple. Check the back side of the locks to see if they have a bridle over the tumbler, and a fly in the tumbler. If they don't have the bridle, they are a cheaper version of the lock. Not so good...
Next check the stock wood. Are the stocks made in two pieces with a brass 'washer' at the joint between the two pieces of wood? Check to see if they are kit guns or factory finished rifles. Kit guns can be built very well, and some not so well.
Check the trigger. It can be a double trigger or most likely a single trigger. Is the trigger a piece of steel or is it brass? Check the brass furniture, nose cap, trigger guard, buttplate, ramrod thimbles, side plate or washers, patch box if any. Check the sights. And look under the hammer face into the small cup of the hammer. It should fit over the nipple neatly. Check the nipple to see if it is pounded flat and needs to be replaced.
It might be something very close to what is currently being offered by Traditions. If the barrels are good, my experience is they have been good shooters.
Did you happen to notice the caliber of the rifles? Some things can be not so attractive, but work very well.
I would check the barrels for obvious signs of abuse or neglect, pitting or rust. Especially check the barrels for bulges. You can run your hand down the exterior of the barrel and maybe feel for a bulge, or look down the bore and you will see a ring around the inside of the bore. Those aren't too good to have. It might be the previous owner goofed something and bulged the barrel. Run a patch down the barrel and see what you get to come out. If they are percussion rifles, look for rust or pitting around the nipple. Check the back side of the locks to see if they have a bridle over the tumbler, and a fly in the tumbler. If they don't have the bridle, they are a cheaper version of the lock. Not so good...
Next check the stock wood. Are the stocks made in two pieces with a brass 'washer' at the joint between the two pieces of wood? Check to see if they are kit guns or factory finished rifles. Kit guns can be built very well, and some not so well.
Check the trigger. It can be a double trigger or most likely a single trigger. Is the trigger a piece of steel or is it brass? Check the brass furniture, nose cap, trigger guard, buttplate, ramrod thimbles, side plate or washers, patch box if any. Check the sights. And look under the hammer face into the small cup of the hammer. It should fit over the nipple neatly. Check the nipple to see if it is pounded flat and needs to be replaced.
It might be something very close to what is currently being offered by Traditions. If the barrels are good, my experience is they have been good shooters.
Did you happen to notice the caliber of the rifles? Some things can be not so attractive, but work very well.
Crawdad1
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Kush, if you're going to be an occasional shooter by all means look them over but if you planning on being more than that I would leave them alone. I know of far too many people that have bought that type and have regretted it when they wanted to step up into regular black powder shooting.
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DoubleDeuce 1
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I would ask the seller if the guns are from kits. He might know. If there is any paperwork that comes with the rifle(s), there might be some information regarding a kit build. Look at the wood to metal fit and finish. Factory guns are generally finished a little better than some of the earlier kits guns I have seen. If it is a kit, and the builder put it together with a lot of care, it might be difficult to tell the difference. Some kit guns can perform just as well or better than factory guns. Again, it just depends on the care put into it during the building. Thompson Center marked their barrles with the letter 'K' to indicate kit. I don't know what Jukar did.
As for the hammer, it should hit the nipple squarely. You should or might see a slight mark in the cup of the hammer where it strikes the nipple. It doesn't have to be exactly centered. A little off center is alright. It just has to clear the rim of the cup of the hammer with a little extra room. Think about the thickness of a percussion cap. The hammer has to strike the cap cleanly and not on the edge. If there isn't enough clearance, the hammer will strike the edge of the cap and may not detonate every time. Those things can sometimes be easily fixed.
Check the bluing of the barrel. A good blue job might be an indication of a factory gun, but not always.
As has been mentioned, if you are going to be an occasional shooter, you might want to consider that this is an entry level type rifle. They can be good shooters, and you can learn a lot with them and from them.
Is there any way you can get a few photos of the rifles? There are used rifles for sale on other forums also. You might want to check into those sites.
If you are set on one or both of these rifles, you might make an offer...
As for the hammer, it should hit the nipple squarely. You should or might see a slight mark in the cup of the hammer where it strikes the nipple. It doesn't have to be exactly centered. A little off center is alright. It just has to clear the rim of the cup of the hammer with a little extra room. Think about the thickness of a percussion cap. The hammer has to strike the cap cleanly and not on the edge. If there isn't enough clearance, the hammer will strike the edge of the cap and may not detonate every time. Those things can sometimes be easily fixed.
Check the bluing of the barrel. A good blue job might be an indication of a factory gun, but not always.
As has been mentioned, if you are going to be an occasional shooter, you might want to consider that this is an entry level type rifle. They can be good shooters, and you can learn a lot with them and from them.
Is there any way you can get a few photos of the rifles? There are used rifles for sale on other forums also. You might want to check into those sites.
If you are set on one or both of these rifles, you might make an offer...
I am looking for more of a less expensive entry level rifle so that isn't bad, just in case I don't like the extra work involved in shooting black powder, but I don't like the newer in-lines as most of them are designed to shoot sabots only and they just look like modern rifles. Also I will get pictures when I go back to the pawn store tomorrow.
DoubleDeuce 1
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Get as many photos as you can. Close- ups around the lock and nipple, muzzle and any defects you might find. Some over all shots would be good. Maybe some shots of the barrel pin locations and nose cap too.
Check to see that the ram rods are not hardware store dowels. They can be replaced, but don't ever use those on your rifle. Look to see if there are brass tips on the ram rods. There are usually two, sometimes only one.
Good luck
Check to see that the ram rods are not hardware store dowels. They can be replaced, but don't ever use those on your rifle. Look to see if there are brass tips on the ram rods. There are usually two, sometimes only one.
Good luck
Acorn Mush
Member
Kush, in addition to what has already been suggested it would be wise to first ascertain whether or not the rifles are loaded. Drop a ramrod down the barrel, make a witness mark on the rod at the muzzle with a pencil or a piece of tape then withdraw it and lay it alongside the barrel with the witness mark at the muzzle. If the other end of the rod is not at or very near to the drum and nipple, or the vent if the rifle is a flintlock, it probably has a load downbore. If the rifle has a bolster-type breech, the rod should come to within 1/2" to 5/8" of the joint between the barrel and the breechplug.
Several times I have read on these forums that a pawn-shop rifle has been discovered to be loaded when the buyer got home. Please use due caution, and welcome to the club. Hope you stay with us.
Several times I have read on these forums that a pawn-shop rifle has been discovered to be loaded when the buyer got home. Please use due caution, and welcome to the club. Hope you stay with us.
Went back today and checked them over, only things I did not do were run a patch down the barrel and check the back of the lock.
Both of them have no barrel bulges, are .45 caliber, have 2 piece stocks with a brass part in between and no patch box, both have brass front sights, nose caps, trigger guards, butt plates, and that plate on the other side of the stock opposite the lock is also brass, the locks on both look similar to the case hardened finish that manufactures sell guns with, both have ramrods with brass parts on both ends and go completely into the barrel when there is no ball in it, and the stocks on both guns appear to be in similar condition. The seller did not know whether they were kit guns or factory made and nothing else comes with them.
The first one has a trigger with a finish similar to the locks on the guns, the pins that hold the front part of the stock to the barrel can be pushed slightly side to side if you put a lot of finger pressure on them, the hammer hits squarely on the nipple, the nipple appears to be new and shiny, and there is a small amount of rust in front of the drum.
The second one has a brass trigger, the pins that hold the front part of the stock to the barrel can not be pushed at all, the ramrod appears to be somewhat warped and bends slightly to one side and is missing any kind of stain or finish on any place where it would normally be covered, the hammer clips the side of the nipple when it falls, the nipple has the same finish as the rest of the gun, there appears to be a little bit of finish missing in front of the drum but no rust, and the finish on the barrel doesn't look as good as the first gun.
From what you have said I'm thinking that gun number one would probably be the better of the two
Pictures of gun number one.
Both of them have no barrel bulges, are .45 caliber, have 2 piece stocks with a brass part in between and no patch box, both have brass front sights, nose caps, trigger guards, butt plates, and that plate on the other side of the stock opposite the lock is also brass, the locks on both look similar to the case hardened finish that manufactures sell guns with, both have ramrods with brass parts on both ends and go completely into the barrel when there is no ball in it, and the stocks on both guns appear to be in similar condition. The seller did not know whether they were kit guns or factory made and nothing else comes with them.
The first one has a trigger with a finish similar to the locks on the guns, the pins that hold the front part of the stock to the barrel can be pushed slightly side to side if you put a lot of finger pressure on them, the hammer hits squarely on the nipple, the nipple appears to be new and shiny, and there is a small amount of rust in front of the drum.
The second one has a brass trigger, the pins that hold the front part of the stock to the barrel can not be pushed at all, the ramrod appears to be somewhat warped and bends slightly to one side and is missing any kind of stain or finish on any place where it would normally be covered, the hammer clips the side of the nipple when it falls, the nipple has the same finish as the rest of the gun, there appears to be a little bit of finish missing in front of the drum but no rust, and the finish on the barrel doesn't look as good as the first gun.
From what you have said I'm thinking that gun number one would probably be the better of the two
Pictures of gun number one.
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DoubleDeuce 1
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I am no expert, but rifle #2 looks like it might be a kit gun. The percussion drum does not seat down well into the lock plate. The forward part of the trigger guard does not appear to be inlet properly. It should probably be seated better. The trigger looks like it might be brass, to me that would indicate something from the late seventies onward. The brass lock plate opposite the lock is of the early design. And it looks as if the rear sight is in backwards.
To correct the improper fitting drum, the barrel would have to be moved back slightly.
Rifle #1 looks as if it might be the better of the two. The trigger looks like it is steel and from the early to mid 70's. The lock appears to line up better than the one on rifle #2.
If your heart is set on one, I'd go for rifle #1. Ask the shop owner how long the rifle has been there, and make him an offer. I can remember when those kits sold for a whopping $79.00 or so. A finished one was slightly more. I don't know your financial situation, but I'd offer maybe $75- 80.00 for a start.
If the shop owner lets you look behind the lock for the bridle, that would be better. I would say I might be inclined to offer $100.00, depending on the bridle and fly in the tumbler.
Again, I am no expert. I am just making some observations based on the photos you sent and rifles I own or have handled over the years.
Both rifles are consistent with the early Connecticutt Valley Arms offerings. They are very similar to the Traditions rifles.
To correct the improper fitting drum, the barrel would have to be moved back slightly.
Rifle #1 looks as if it might be the better of the two. The trigger looks like it is steel and from the early to mid 70's. The lock appears to line up better than the one on rifle #2.
If your heart is set on one, I'd go for rifle #1. Ask the shop owner how long the rifle has been there, and make him an offer. I can remember when those kits sold for a whopping $79.00 or so. A finished one was slightly more. I don't know your financial situation, but I'd offer maybe $75- 80.00 for a start.
If the shop owner lets you look behind the lock for the bridle, that would be better. I would say I might be inclined to offer $100.00, depending on the bridle and fly in the tumbler.
Again, I am no expert. I am just making some observations based on the photos you sent and rifles I own or have handled over the years.
Both rifles are consistent with the early Connecticutt Valley Arms offerings. They are very similar to the Traditions rifles.
Acorn Mush
Member
Kush, the shop owner should let you at least run a patch down the barrel. Also there is no reason for him not to allow you to remove the lock, or for him to do it for you if he doesn't trust your skills. If you have a bore light, that would be helpful in determining the interior condition of the barrel.
If rifle #2 looks better to your eyes, don't worry about a slight misalignment of the hammer nose to the nipple. That can be corrected by bending the hammer as appropriate.
Perhaps you could make the shop owner an offer of both rifles. That way you could keep the one you like better and spiff up the other one to sell for a small profit.
If rifle #2 looks better to your eyes, don't worry about a slight misalignment of the hammer nose to the nipple. That can be corrected by bending the hammer as appropriate.
Perhaps you could make the shop owner an offer of both rifles. That way you could keep the one you like better and spiff up the other one to sell for a small profit.
loose noose
Member
Kush, I've got a Jukar .45 Pistol kit I put together about 40 years ago, and the serial number is all numbers, no "k" any where on it. BTW it is percussion also, and it shoots fairly accurate, even though the lands and grooves are fairly shallow.
Skinny 1950
Member
The first set of pictures looks like a CVA kit rifle that I bought a couple of years ago, someone bought it in the 70's and didn't build it so I picked it up for $150.00 and put it together. Mine is .45 cal with a Jukar barrel it is a good shooter but I have had some trouble getting it to fire. Now I load the powder and turn the rifle on it's side and tap some powder into the drum before ramming the ball in...seems to work.
Here is a picture of the kit as I got it.
Here is a picture of the kit as I got it.
I bought the gun, thank you very much for your help. I ran a patch down the barrel and it came out pretty much the same as if you ran a patch down one of my other rifle's barrels (which I clean after I go to the range) but they would not let me remove the lock. I did manage to talk them down on the price a bit though. I will be buying powder, balls, patches, and caps tomorrow and will be shooting it some time next week.
DoubleDeuce 1
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Which rifle, #1 or #2 ? And if you don't mind... how much ?
Get .440 balls if it is a .45 cal. .490 balls if it is a .50 cal.
Pillow ticking (all cotton) works great for the patch material. Be sure to wash if to get the sizing out. Use a good patch lube.
Try some FFFG black powder if you can find it. Start out with 40-45 gr powder and work from there 5 gr at a time, until you find what the rifle likes. Shoot from a sandbag rest to ease the process of sighting and powder charge.
Pictures would be good too.
HAVE FUN!
Get .440 balls if it is a .45 cal. .490 balls if it is a .50 cal.
Pillow ticking (all cotton) works great for the patch material. Be sure to wash if to get the sizing out. Use a good patch lube.
Try some FFFG black powder if you can find it. Start out with 40-45 gr powder and work from there 5 gr at a time, until you find what the rifle likes. Shoot from a sandbag rest to ease the process of sighting and powder charge.
Pictures would be good too.
HAVE FUN!
I got rifle #1. I already know to get .440 balls and .015 lubed patches (at least for now, later I might start making my own), for powder I have to get Pyrodex P because there isn't a store within 100 miles that currently carries actual black powder (one will start to soon though, lucky me). Also I have heard that the max load for a .45 muzzleloader with a patched round ball is around 70 grains fffg (probably won't go that high as I will go through powder quicker though).
BHP FAN
Member
Sixty gr. is a good accurate load in the .45 Jukar ''Kentucky'' you have.
I have been in muzzleloading most of my life and build a lot of my own these days. Last summer I came across a mint condition Jukar like you have shown at a local gunstore for about $100. I bought it as I thought it might be a good starter rifle for my son. I was very surprised when it turned out to be one of the most accurate muzzleloaders that I own. You did good and likely have a very accurate rifle if you treat it right. Hopefully it will lead you down the road to more historically correct rifles, but until than (if ever) you have made a very wise purchase.
Range Report
I figure that I should probably follow up with a range report, the gun shoots good except for having some problems with setting off the caps, which I found out was due to the hammer rubbing against the stock, which was fixed with a file and a few minutes after I got home. The gun seems pretty accurate, I managed a .5 inch group at a little under 20 yards with the front of the gun on a rest and nothing to put my elbows on, with 55 grains FFFg powder. I was only able to fire 7 shots due to the problem setting off caps though. Overall it was still pretty fun.
My target, the smaller holes were due to rocks in the bottom of the box to keep the wind from blowing it over:
I figure that I should probably follow up with a range report, the gun shoots good except for having some problems with setting off the caps, which I found out was due to the hammer rubbing against the stock, which was fixed with a file and a few minutes after I got home. The gun seems pretty accurate, I managed a .5 inch group at a little under 20 yards with the front of the gun on a rest and nothing to put my elbows on, with 55 grains FFFg powder. I was only able to fire 7 shots due to the problem setting off caps though. Overall it was still pretty fun.
My target, the smaller holes were due to rocks in the bottom of the box to keep the wind from blowing it over:
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loose noose
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Kush not bad, however you should start out at 25 yards, and work your way out to say 50, 75, and maybe even 100 yards. Glad to hear ya had some fun though. Too bad about that wind it can be a real bear.
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