Worst advice ever printed

[WestKentucky]

This one is scary dumb...on multiple levels. Advice for reloading contained here is exceedingly dangerous. The statement on velocity is also a testament of idiocy.

How do people make stuff like this public, and how in the lawsuit happy heck have they not had the snot kicked out of them in the courtroom?

"Start at max loads" simply put...No. never ever ever ever do this. Ever.
"Work up from there" with "there" being max...this is asking for a catastrophic failure. It's like Russian Roulette...just don't.

The comment on velocity would have had merit had they stopped slobbering words onto the electronic page before they explained that it's faster because it has the capability to run higher pressure. True enough, locked rotating breach is stronger than lever action. What's not true is that ammo runs faster in a gun just because it's capable of doing more. Furthermore they are comparing similar cartridges but not the same here. Rimmed, thin (relatively) brass allows for considerably more case capacity than a rimless thick walled case does. So yes if you stuff the same stuff into a smaller area pressures increase, so velocity should increase as well but that's not always the case, especially in rifles when using fast powders.

End of rant. Seriously folks, if you run across something that seems odd like using X ammo in Y gun then cross reference it and see if it's a typo or maybe even some malicious joke, and never ever ever ever ever as a reloader should you "start at max" and you shouldn't ever work a load outside of the normal published load ranges.

Screenshot says it all. I'm dumbfounded.

 

[RX-79G]

Do you understand that they are talking about using .357 Magnum load data as a starting point for developing a different cartridge with a working pressure up to 15,000 PSI higher than .357 Mag? That other cartridge is called .357 Rimless Magnum, and it is being developed for rifle use.

They are not talking about using max .357 Mag loads to start loading .357 Mag.

 

[KansasSasquatch]

I can see both sides of that coin. The AR is capable of handling more pressure so it makes sense that MAX .357mag loads should be safe in the new cartridge. But at the same time it isn't safe to suggest working up from there. Most, probably 99.99%, of reloaders don't own or have access the equipment to measure chamber pressure. So working up beyond .357mag MAX loads, you won't know when you're approaching the maximum safe working pressure of the AR-15 action. The brass isn't going to be the weak point since you're starting with brass that originally was capable of withstanding 50k+ psi.

I think it's an interesting cartridge. And I think someday I'd like to have an AR chambered for it. But theres not a chance in hell you'll catch me developing the load data for it as I'm part of the 99.99% that doesn't have access to pressure testing equipment.

 

[RX-79G]

It's a load in development by the people that like to do that sort of thing. They have their methods, and if you don't understand them you should not be joining their ranks.

 

[edwardware]

I think you misunderstand the purpose of the technical bulletin. It's suggesting a cartridge development path, for a new wildcat, based on .223 brass, formed to something resembling .357 brass.

Their proposed path seems reasonable to me. If you're not willing to experiment, tread carefully, and find the edge of the performance envelope by ruining a few pieces of brass, you shouldn't be wildcatting.

 

[reddog81]

I couldn't find that page on their website.

Based upon the image someone who doesn't know what they are doing could end up with many problems, however i'm going to guess that people having AR15 barrels made in 357 rimless aren't your average Joe. Honestly I kind of like the idea. I have considered buying a 300 Blackout upper, but a 357 rimless would be even better. I definitely would not be starting at max load data and working up...

 

[buck460XVR]

I think you misunderstand the purpose of the technical bulletin. It's suggesting a cartridge development path, for a new wildcat, based on .223 brass, formed to something resembling .357 brass.

Yep....and folks that have the knowledge to form that brass from .223 also probably know how to work up a load. Folks that cannot read the article properly or comprehend what it's saying, probably shouldn't be reloading at all.

 

[Sam1911]

While I wouldn't want to say anything so derogatory as "(if you don't understand this you) probably shouldn't be reloading at all," which I think is needlessly and counter-productively rude, the points made above are all spot-on.

They aren't telling anyone to load their .357 Magnum cartridge up over maximum and go run it through their .357 Magnum revolver. They're saying that this new cartridge combination they're developing appears that it would do well with loads that begin around the same level as top end .357 Magnum loads, and that the combination of the brass they're using and the gun they're using should perform properly with loads developed by stepping up cautiously from that point. Just as all wildcats have been developed for the last century or more.

Anyone buying a barrel in this new chambering, and making up brass to run in it, is buying into the little group of experimenters who will be balancing the inherent risks of wildcat experimentation with the fun and rewards of getting to play with and help develop what could be a really useful new cartridge.

 

[WestKentucky]

I see where you guys are coming from but the article is still ridiculous. The one thing that is constantly preached around here is to use data from reputable sources, and to stay within the confines of printed data. This is a slap in the face to that whole point of safety. The worst part is that there's a suggested lower limit, but no upper limit even remotely mentioned. They are simply assuming that folks can read pressure signs and know when to back off.

And to all those who responded by simply stating that I don't know how to read the article, go back and reread my post. I clearly point out that it's a different cartridge, I clearly point out that an AR is a stronger action than a lever carbine, and with an exploding AR market we have to assume that people with less knowledge, experience, etc will get hold of the right set of dies and a barrel and try to hotrod the cartridge with no upper limits...this is recipe for disaster and sloppy and irresponsible selling. The least they should have done is a quick work up with the most common powders to establish baseline data including a max load.

 

[ClickClickD'oh]

The one thing that is constantly preached around here is to use data from reputable sources, and to stay within the confines of printed data.

It's really hard to find data from reputable sources when you are quite literally inventing a brand new cartridge.

we have to assume that people with less knowledge, experience, etc will get hold of the right set of dies...

Where exactly does one buy .357 Rimless Magnum dies?

The least they should have done is a quick work up with the most common powders to establish baseline data including a max load.

You say that you understand they are in the process of inventing a brand new cartridge... but clearly don't understand they are inventing a brand new cartridge.

 

[230RN]

Interesting. I wonder how they'll accomplish obturation with the thicker brass where the bullet will be seated --using .223 brass. (I note one photo where there seemed to be an obturation problem.)

Having done a bit of adventurous experimentation myself, I wonder if this information should have been privately circulated to other "adventurous experimenters" instead of on a "public" forum.

However, the points about folks who would be in a position to experiment in this manner not being the "normal" reloader, is well taken. These folks are to the point where can make their own D-reamers on their own lathes to make their own reloading dies. And are fully aware of the dangers of trying to contain 50-60,000 "psi" in a thin little brass bottle.

I frankly applaud any efforts to enhance the utility of the AR platform beyond using what is an excellent 100 lb varmint cartridge and not much good for anything else. I note several efforts in this direction have resulted in commercial cartridges already.

Terry, 230RN

 

[Arizona_Mike]

Very often a wildcat like an improved cartridge will reference the max load of the parent cartridge as a starting point. This is nothing new. In fact, in this instance, the wildcat is made from rifle brass while the reference cartridge uses pistol brass with a much weaker/thinner case head/web. I really don't see any merit in your alarm.

Mike

 

[ClickClickD'oh]

Interesting. I wonder how they'll accomplish obturation with the thicker brass where the bullet will be seated --using .223 brass.

They won't. They gave up on the project in 2005. The .357 Rimless Magnum only exists in old internet posts.

 

[Arizona_Mike]

My main concern with this cartridge would be terminal performance of bullets designed for .357 Magnum.

On paper, the .375 SOCOM is an amazing round (.30-06 velocities in the 220-235gr range from an AR). In reality, commercially available .375 Win bullets are blowing up like grenades in game and are only good for about 2 MOA when shot semi-auto (0.5 MOA single loading) due to being too fragile for the rough ride in an auto-loader.

Mike

 

[Sam1911]

The one thing that is constantly preached around here is to use data from reputable sources, and to stay within the confines of printed data. This is a slap in the face to that whole point of safety.

How does one find printed data for a cartridge being newly born and which is completely experimental? That's a wildcat. That's how it's always been in developing new rounds. It isn't perfectly safe and anyone playing this game knows that.

The worst part is that there's a suggested lower limit, but no upper limit even remotely mentioned. They are simply assuming that folks can read pressure signs and know when to back off.

That's a wildcat. That's how it's always been in developing new rounds. It isn't perfectly safe and anyone playing this game knows that. And ironically, we now understand that "reading pressure signs" is generally something that only happens when people have gone FAR further than they think they have. (Pressure signs don't show up until you're way out in danger land.) But, again, that's wildcats. That's how it's done.

 

[buck460XVR]

While I wouldn't want to say anything so derogatory as "(if you don't understand this you) probably shouldn't be reloading at all," which I think is needlessly and counter-productively rude.

Really? The article is written clearly and mentions the caliber multiple times. Should be easy for anyone with common reading and comprehension skills. No different than any reloading manual. If someone cannot read and comprehend those.....I also believe they should not be reloading. If folks read a recipe for 30-06 and think it relates to reloading .30 carbine....I also doubt if they should reload, even if the number 30 is in both. Folks ask all the time how to reload .357 cases down to .38 special levels(limited info there too) and they are told to start at upper end .38 recipes and work up....is that also the worst advice ever? Add to the fact that the link is only one source of info. Most of us always use more than one source, especially if we are not sure of that source. Folks that use untrusted sources should not reload. My comment was not directedd at the OP, but at reloade5rs in general. Reloading is not rocket science, but if one cannot read, comprehend and follow simple directions.....they should not reload. How does anyone disagree with that?

 

[Sam1911]

My comment was not directedd at the OP, but at reloade5rs in general.

Sorry then. I (and possibly others) took it as a direct response to the OP, pretty baldly saying, "Hey, if you're bothered by this you're too dumb to reload," or whatever.

I think you'd admit that we do see that kind of insulting stuff all the time, and I imagine if you stop and think about it, you'd see why -- since the OP read the article and was so put out by it as to start this thread -- we'd think you were speaking pretty straight at him when you said, "Folks that cannot read the article properly or comprehend what it's saying, probably shouldn't be reloading at all." What "folks?" Well, he's the one who didn't "get:" this article so we, apparently mistakenly, thought you were including him in those "folks" who's reloading competency you were disparaging.

I apologize if that's not what you meant, but please be more careful in the future so it doesn't seem like you're being denigrating to the guy who's bringing up a question.

 

[Sam1911]

Today, we use the chronograph. If you add half a grain of powder at a time, and at some point, you stop seeing a corresponding increase in velocity, you'd better back off (with that set of components)

Which is one of the tools in the toolchest, but, like looking for flattened primers and loosened primer pockets and such, is only a shadow of the story that a pressure testing rig will tell you.

Fortunately most guns are built far stronger than they "need" to be which has saved a lot of wildcatters (and other adventurous reloaders) from injury, but we do see plenty of instances where the old methods of observing pressure signs, when tested in modern gear, lead to "woah! Uh oh. Yikes," sort of discoveries about what's really going on.

 

[boom boom]

One method (with two variants) to measure case pressure is what master handloader Ken Waters (who did a lot of work with wildcats) did which was carefully measure case expansion after firing (requires precise before and after measures of the same case reference point--Waters used the case pressure ring while others use the case web) Re: http://centerfirecentral.com/articles/pressure.htm

 

[Drail]

Forget about learning to reload from the Internet. Read books. Lots of books.

 

[MEHavey]

"RTP" (as my physics professors always said).
It's a rifle cartridge, housed in a rifle action, and shot from a rifle chamber -- at a rated 50ksi.
Therefore starting at 357 Mag's 35ksi is not at a problem at all -- (especially if you actually wanted the action to cycle)
You'd need QuickLoad, however, to approach/calculate Max.
(I did a note lack of direction to use small rifle primers, though)


postscriptum: QuickLoad has cartridge data for the 357 Rimless Mag. It's a real screamer.
.

 

[WestKentucky]

Forget about learning to reload from the Internet. Read books. Lots of books.

Forget about learning to reload from books too. Books are great, don't get me wrong there, but there are some things that just DO NOT translate well from reality to paper. A couple hours with an experienced person can easily be worth weeks of reading, tinkering, and learning by trial and error. Book learning is essentially guided trial and error.

 

[RX-79G]

Forget about learning to reload from books too. Books are great, don't get me wrong there, but there are some things that just DO NOT translate well from reality to paper. A couple hours with an experienced person can easily be worth weeks of reading, tinkering, and learning by trial and error. Book learning is essentially guided trial and error.

It worked for me. I also learned to make knives, cook and make holsters from books. I don't recall any significant trial and error.

 

[230RN]

"Which is one of the tools in the toolchest, but, like looking for flattened primers and loosened primer pockets and such, is only a shadow of the story that a pressure testing rig will tell you."

Well, yeah, but the process involves gradually working up from knowable safe loads and observing the primer for each increment of loading density, not packing the case full of BullsEye and then checking the primer.

Or what;'s left of it.

If you can find it.

Sorry to sound teachy, I know you know this, but I thought it worthwhile to point out that primer condition can give you sufficient incremental warnings to know when to stop, whether or not you can afford a pressure testing rig.

After all, the original pressure guns had a port in the barrel so a piston could deform a copper slug, which was compared to the dead weight required to deform the slug in the same way. Hence the term "Copper Units of Pressure." Primer deformation is a similar process.

But in the OP subject area, even I* would not have started with full-house .357-like loads, even in a rifle action.

Testicles do not trump testing.

Terry, 230RN

*An admitted "aggressive experimenter." (And yes, I'm aware of the "light load detonation" possibility.)

 

[MEHavey]

But in the OP subject area, even I* would not have started
with full-house .357-like loads, even in a rifle action.

Pray tell, why not?
A "Full-House" 357Mag load is 35ksi in a 50ksi cartridge, and is req'd to minimally function the action.

BTW: If the owner (as opposed to the OP) doesn't appreciate what's happening here, he should not take on the rifle.
And if the owner doesn't have the likes of QuickLoad AND good chronograph, he shouldn't depart very far from those 357 Mag loads.

With a 50ksi ceiling, there's no such thing as primer reading, nor brass reading, until you're in the 70ksi regime (and up)