Would handguns holding more than 12 rounds be legal in D.C.?

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LAR-15

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Right now D.C. totally prohibits handguns holding more than 12 rounds as being 'machine guns'.

Would this prompt another lawsuit against D.C.?

It seems to me even a Heller victory would leave many handguns illegal in D.C.

10) "Machine gun" means any firearm which shoots, is designed to shoot, or can be readily converted or restored to shoot:

(A) Automatically, more than 1 shot by a single function of the trigger;

(B) Semiautomatically, more than 12 shots without manual reloading.


(12) "Pistol" means any firearm originally designed to be fired by use of a single hand.
 
a) A registration certificate shall not be issued for a:

(1) Sawed-off shotgun;

(2) Machine gun;

(3) Short-barreled rifle; or

(4) Pistol not validly registered to the current registrant in the District prior to September 24, 1976, except that the provisions of this section shall not apply to any organization that employs at least 1 commissioned special police officer or other employee licensed to carry a firearm and that arms the employee with a firearm during the employee's duty hours or to a police officer who has retired from the Metropolitan Police Department.

Did Gura 'screw the pooch' by avoiding the machine gun argument?

In the District a Beretta 92 is a 'machine gun'
 
If the district loses, DC will surely take advantage of its peculiar definition of "machine gun" and push the envelope in every possible way to make legal gun ownership difficult. They may even take inspiration from Gura's statements in oral arguments and have the licensing office open for one hour each month at 3am. They'll have to be forced into understanding the 2nd amendment, either through further legal cases or political action.
 
NJ has the same law for mag caps higher than 15... so that 60 year old .22lr sears and roebuck rifle that i have is an assault weapon in NJ

these laws are going to stand unless the SCOTUS specifies what a reasonable restriction is
 
Being that handguns holding more than 12 rounds are protected by the Second Amendment, they are legal universally in the US.
Well, in theory, anyway.
The wording of the decision in Heller will probably address or ignore this in one way or the other. We'll have to wait and see.
 
More than 12 round without manually reloading means a magazine capacity of more than 12 rounds.

That's all, don't read more into than that.
 
Even legal possession of 11 round handguns would be a big step foreward for DC. I remember when I thought 7 rounds in a model 1911 was enough.

DC when it loses the heller case might say that limiting the residents to 6 shot revolvers was reasonable and if I still lived there I would not be too displeased. Only two of the many handguns I own hold more than 10 shots without using extended magazines.
 
So you're okay with an 11 round limit because it doesn't affect you? CA is still stuck with a 10 round limit and it bothers me a lot.
 
It will probably take a seperate lawsuit, but I do not think DC could make a 12 round limit stick by simply defining such guns as machineguns.

Imagine if a DC statute had the following provision:

Definitions:

For the purposes of this section, a "machinegun" is defined as,

- any rifle, pistol, or shotgun that is capable of firing more than one round with a single pull of the trigger.

- any balloon, whether made out of natural rubber or a man-made polymer that can be inflated by the action of a human being blowing air into it so as to achieve an inflated diameter of greater than 3 inches.

Effective March 15, 1973, The District will no longer accept registration applications for machineguns.
Click to expand...

Obviously, such a law could be challenged successfully by some who was convicted of possessing a balloon, or prohibited from buying one, on the grounds that the law was completely unreasonable. Calling a balloon a machinegun simply doesn't make it so.

Now, that having been said, I think that DC could still keep a ban on 12+ round magazines in place even if they lost Heller (as I believe they will). It's not a slam dunk either way mind you, but even under strict scrutiny there will be room for considerable regulation of firearms. The courts might well find that a jurisdiction could regulate the maximum allowable magazine capacity while not placing an undue burden on the exercise of 2A rights.

So all they would have to do is change the law to sever the 12+ round limitation from the machinegun ban and simply impose it as a general restriction on all guns whether machineguns or not.

And note that I am not saying that I favor this, or anything like it. I'm just commenting on what we can expect in the aftermath of Heller.
 
Did Gura 'screw the pooch' by avoiding the machine gun argument?
Click to expand...

Be realistic: he can't get every single unwelcome gun law in the US overturned in a single SCOTUS decision.

So much of what I hear and read of gun owners' expectations for Heller is totally unrealistic. Even if Heller goes our way and serves as a favorable precedent, it will still require many, many follow up cases to overturn gun control laws one by one. And there's no guarantee that all those follow up cases will go our way, either.
 
So if you EVER used a normal capacity magazine in say a Glock 17, and from then on always used a neutered 10 round magazine, is the pistol still a machinegun?
Once a machine gun, always a machine gun right? You then wouldn't be able to sell it to anybody, since it had at one time been a machine gun???
 
More than 12 round without manually reloading means a magazine capacity of more than 12 rounds.

That's all, don't read more into than that.
Click to expand...

That is not how D.C. interprets it. Sorry.

Try registering an M1 carbine with a 5 round magazine in D.C.- won't happen.
 
Guys, this is not mediaeval sophistry about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.

It is as the SC already stated really badly written law.

IT IS A MAGAZINE CAPACITY LIMIT

Pre-registered semi-automatic pistols in DC can have anything up to a 12 round magazine (10 in reality as I don't know anyone who makes 12's).

There are no restrictions in DC in purchasing magazines or parts thereof.

So, you legally registered and owned a 9mm Browning HP with a 10 round magazine in 1976 and the magazine fails and needs replacing in 2008.

You buy a new 10 round magazine manufactured in 2008. You are still fully legal.

You buy an any year manufactured 13 round mag, you can go to jail.

If/when the handgun bar goes the way of the dodo then until that line is changed it still remains a magazine capacty limit.

Same as NY with 10 round limits, NJ with 15 round limits.
 
It's more than that.

If the gun has the potential to hold more than 12 rounds (INCLUDING THE CHAMBER) it is banned whether you have a 12 or more round magazine for it.

Besides many 40 caliber pistols have 12 round magazines.

Add one in the chamber= machine gun

The most common handguns used today are still going to be banned even if Heller goes for us.

You could not say after the ban is repealed buy a Glock 15 stick a 10 round magazine in it and claim it is D.C. legal.
 
everallm:
I have heard of DC rejecting the efforts to register an M1 Carbine using a 5rd mag, since there are 20 and 30rd magazines available for it. It is not a magazine capacity limit, it is a ban on any weapon that can accept a detachable magazine (since its almost assured that someone, somewhere, sometime made a 11rd magazine for the weapon).

Kharn
 
Once again, the point is that weapons that could mount a magazine of greater than 12 rounds were registered as acceptable in '76/'77.

I deliberately used the example of the Browning HP as it was a handgun in wide and common use at the time that as a standard came with both "good" and "evil" magazines.

In addition I can't seem to find any "grandfathering" in the original statute for "pre-ban" 12+ capacity weapons.

As such there is demonstrable precedent that the restriction was, has and should be applied at the magazine capacity level.

DC refusing to register a rifle such as the M1, because at sometime a larger capacity magazine could be made available is itself illegal based upon their own actions, case law and precedent.

It also and immediately falls into the SC stance that it is (probably) illegal to ban an entire class of weapons.

Someone being refused on these grounds has standing for a legal review but I would bet didn't have the deep pockets to fight it.

As long as DC can get away with it they will.......
 
Looking for rationale behind gun control laws is a frustrating endeavor.

Why don't we look forward to the baby step of having SCOTUS declare that the Second Amendment protects an individual right first, and then begin the process of overturning the mish-mash of infringements that have been enacted into law?

In other words, "don't count your chickens before they hatch."
 
My point is even if SCOTUS declares the Second to be an individual right and strikes down D.C.'s handgun ban, there are still other gun bans in place.

The media claims the handguns will suddenly become legal in D.C. and the sky will fall.

Not if they hold or are capable of holding more than 12 rounds

Remember the sky is not going to fall with a pro-individual ruling.

SCOTUS needs to specifically address what regulations are kosher and what aren't.

It will be interesting to note Dick Anthony Heller might not be able to own the type of handgun he carries on his job even if he wins Heller.
 
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