Would the USP have won the XM9 trials?
- Thread starter Amish
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George Hill
Member
I think so.
No.
Its per unit cost/replacement parts cost would be too high and HK during the G11 period couldn't afford a plant in the US to meet the contract. They were busy almost going broke trying to build the next German assault rifle remember?
Its per unit cost/replacement parts cost would be too high and HK during the G11 period couldn't afford a plant in the US to meet the contract. They were busy almost going broke trying to build the next German assault rifle remember?
10-Ring
Member
The firearm itself would have performed well, but as Boats has mentioned, here were more requirements to winning those trials than simply function. HK had a lot of things going against them at the time. Now maybe if they hold similar trials today, it would have different results.
HKcenterMass
Member
Of course it would have.
Sean Smith
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It could have. But the external factors would probably have kept it from being chosen.
New_comer
Member
Corporate direction at the time could have been different had HK focused on the XM9 trials.
The pistol would have been the least of their worries...
The pistol would have been the least of their worries...
Ala Dan
Member in memoriam
No- I Don't Believe So
Greeting's All-
Its my understanding that SIG-Sauer lost the contract
on account of cost per unit; not because the M9 out
performed the SIG, so I think H&K would have been
in the same situation because H&K would have
demanded more money than SIG!
Best Wishes,
Ala Dan, N.R.A. Life Member
Greeting's All-
Its my understanding that SIG-Sauer lost the contract
on account of cost per unit; not because the M9 out
performed the SIG, so I think H&K would have been
in the same situation because H&K would have
demanded more money than SIG!
Best Wishes,
Ala Dan, N.R.A. Life Member
Not unless the US government needed more missile silos in Germany.
I'm a true believer in the allegations that there were ulterior motives influencing the final selection process. Saco-Maremont (who was importing the SIG's at that time) strongly suspected that Beretta was secretly shown their final offer in order to allow them to undercut the bid. In the end the SIG actually cost slightly less per pistol, but when spare parts, magazines and other support were included the overall final cost favored the Beretta.
I'm a true believer in the allegations that there were ulterior motives influencing the final selection process. Saco-Maremont (who was importing the SIG's at that time) strongly suspected that Beretta was secretly shown their final offer in order to allow them to undercut the bid. In the end the SIG actually cost slightly less per pistol, but when spare parts, magazines and other support were included the overall final cost favored the Beretta.
I'd believe the conspiracy stories about missiles in Italy but for one small detail:
The Beretta won the first trial conducted by the Air Force before the missile deployment issue was on the radar during the second trial. The Beretta hadn't faced right proper by GOD Arrrrrrrrrrrhhhhhhhhhhhhhhmmmmmmmmmy Mud(TM) SIR! In the end it hardly matters because both companies are well represented in the military/fedgov ranks and everything else in the trial has largely become a footnote in sales or is extinct as a model designation.
Both SIG and Beretta get mentioned in the same breath any time the XM9 trials come up. Who says there is no second place winner? They both became household names in America by being the only two to get Uncle Sam's Goodhousekeeping Seal of Approval.
Besides, the ones really screwed may be those forced to rely on 9mm FMJ now no matter what launches it.
The Beretta won the first trial conducted by the Air Force before the missile deployment issue was on the radar during the second trial. The Beretta hadn't faced right proper by GOD Arrrrrrrrrrrhhhhhhhhhhhhhhmmmmmmmmmy Mud(TM) SIR!
In the end it hardly matters because both companies are well represented in the military/fedgov ranks and everything else in the trial has largely become a footnote in sales or is extinct as a model designation.Both SIG and Beretta get mentioned in the same breath any time the XM9 trials come up. Who says there is no second place winner? They both became household names in America by being the only two to get Uncle Sam's Goodhousekeeping Seal of Approval.
Besides, the ones really screwed may be those forced to rely on 9mm FMJ now no matter what launches it.
Tamara
Senior Member
From a purely technical standpoint? Yeah, there's no doubt it could have. If I was going to select a wondernine to issue to folks that were going to be spending a lot of time in the rain, mud and sand of Absurdistan and Lower Revolta (...and it had to have a hammer & external safety) it'd probably be the USP.
As others have noted above, however, there were other factors that would have hamstrung its ability to win the contract.
As others have noted above, however, there were other factors that would have hamstrung its ability to win the contract.
Sean Smith
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Absurdistan was a terrible deployment, a howling mountainous dust bowl of blown away dreams and poorly cued Danny Elfman background music saturated with land mines, open sewers, and half-Mongol babushkas that could hump a 107mm mortar further than your own Eleven Charlies. But I will allways have fond memories of the snaggle-toothed maidens of Lower Revolta, with their devil-may-care insouciance and breath like sweet lilacs soaked in bathtub brewed plum distilates...
El Tejon
Member
I was never in Absurdistan, but I wrote a report on it and updated the filing. One time we even ran out of coffee--devastating!
Amish, it's all about the Benjamins. It depends, what would have been the unit cost and how far the HundK reps would have been willing to go in DC?
Amish, it's all about the Benjamins. It depends, what would have been the unit cost and how far the HundK reps would have been willing to go in DC?
Sean Smith
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But on to the topic of the XM9 trials... back in '97 I was 177 pounds of twisted steel and sex appeal, a hard-edged adrenaline connesour powered by equal parts testotsterone surplus and caffeine mainlining who was up for anything this side of barnyard animals and 12 feet of... I mean, airborne sky-hopping combat in all its red-rimmed witch's brew of glory, death and regretful memory. The M9 Beretta was my Glamdring, my Excalibur, or would have been if it didn't act more like Blunt Object That Threw Lead Like a 12 Year Old Catholic Schoolgirl. It had the force of a UN resolution and the reliability of French diplomacy... during a Socialist administration... if the French had enough testicular fortitude to take real hard drugs instead of whatever passes for PCP among the Eurotrash set.
Seriously, based on the final product I shot back in the Army, I can't imagine the outcome of the trial being much worse. I personally don't like the SigSauer P226 or HK USP9, but I can respect the fact that the ones I have seen actually worked when you cleaned them properly and took them to the range. Maybe I was just snakebit when it came to being issued the things (I don't claim my experience was representative), though I was smart enough to actually follow the instructions for cleaning & maintaining the silly thing. Still, I don't really see the value in re-hashing the XM9 trials when nobody here probalby has any first-hand evidence of what actually went on there.
Man, those Craptopians were a surly bunch... it was all we could do to keep them in Jack Daniels and smelly brown Bulgarian cigarettes...
Seriously, based on the final product I shot back in the Army, I can't imagine the outcome of the trial being much worse. I personally don't like the SigSauer P226 or HK USP9, but I can respect the fact that the ones I have seen actually worked when you cleaned them properly and took them to the range. Maybe I was just snakebit when it came to being issued the things (I don't claim my experience was representative), though I was smart enough to actually follow the instructions for cleaning & maintaining the silly thing. Still, I don't really see the value in re-hashing the XM9 trials when nobody here probalby has any first-hand evidence of what actually went on there.
Man, those Craptopians were a surly bunch... it was all we could do to keep them in Jack Daniels and smelly brown Bulgarian cigarettes...
Island Beretta
Member
Amish,
I think you know the answer to that question!!
I think you know the answer to that question!!
Sean Smith
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Based on what? Your vast knowledge of military handguns in actual use?
HKcenterMass
Member
Nope.
Give it another, private test, if you like.
I like my USP, but my Beretta (and Sig, for that matter) would simply slaughter it.
Flyer
Thats a good one
Give it another, private test, if you like.
I like my USP, but my Beretta (and Sig, for that matter) would simply slaughter it.
Flyer
Thats a good one
Island Beretta
Member
Flyer,
As much as I am a 'Beretta' man I have to admit in the varying conditions under which military campaigns take place, IMHO for general issue the USP would have the edge. For officers issue the Beretta may have had a chance.
That said the Beretta have won other trials throughout the world but I don't recall them beating any USPs.
As much as I am a 'Beretta' man I have to admit in the varying conditions under which military campaigns take place, IMHO for general issue the USP would have the edge. For officers issue the Beretta may have had a chance.
That said the Beretta have won other trials throughout the world but I don't recall them beating any USPs.
Flyer,
That would be your cue to explain (based on your "vast knowledge") exactly why the SIG and Beretta would "slaughter" the USP.
The SIGs and Berettas are great handguns, but I don't think anyone with vast knowlegde would go out on a limb and infer that they are leaps and bounds ahead of the USP.
Care to share with us who are less knowledgeable?
Shake
That would be your cue to explain (based on your "vast knowledge") exactly why the SIG and Beretta would "slaughter" the USP.
The SIGs and Berettas are great handguns, but I don't think anyone with vast knowlegde would go out on a limb and infer that they are leaps and bounds ahead of the USP.
Care to share with us who are less knowledgeable?
Shake
George Hill
Member
Guys... Let's all count to 10 here. Take a deep breath and do not let things get heated in any way shape or form. I am seeing some potential flame going on and I'm wanting it stopped before it starts.
"Am I clear?"
/Jack Nicholson - A Few Good Men.
"Am I clear?"
/Jack Nicholson - A Few Good Men.
Flyer,
You better quit while you're ahead. Though I owned a USPc once and didn't like it, experience here has taught me that you'd best not say anything negative about USPs. If the 1911 and Glock are religions, the USP is a cult, and many of its members are sorely in need of interventions.
For instance, the fantasy that tops this thread is one of the milder symptoms displayed. "Uh, could my gun from the future win the XM9 trials of the mid-80s when the P7 could not?"
Get real. Isn't there some police contract, or minor military trial, or something else the USP could win tomorrow? It's not as if the pistol has taken the world by storm or anything.
You better quit while you're ahead. Though I owned a USPc once and didn't like it, experience here has taught me that you'd best not say anything negative about USPs. If the 1911 and Glock are religions, the USP is a cult, and many of its members are sorely in need of interventions.
For instance, the fantasy that tops this thread is one of the milder symptoms displayed. "Uh, could my gun from the future win the XM9 trials of the mid-80s when the P7 could not?"
Get real. Isn't there some police contract, or minor military trial, or something else the USP could win tomorrow? It's not as if the pistol has taken the world by storm or anything.
George Hill
Member
That's what I expected.
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