sleepyone
Member
iScream. I just PM'd you.
Would you ever use a FFL for a local FTF gun sale?
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sleepyone
Member
That was a wise call in that situation.
sleepyone
Member
Not to be a wise guy, but it would if the guy trying to purchase your firearm is a convicted felon and not legally allowed to purchase a firearm, which would be the whole point behind requesting the FFL transfer.
Guns and more
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Not if I were the buyer.
DeepSouth
Random Guy
Nope..........At least not until our big brother forces us to.
RickL
Member
I probably wouldn't go through an FFL, but a bill of sale is a must. Here's why.
I sold a gun to a co-worker back in the 70s. I had bought it from a dealer. A few years later I was paid a visit by an ATF agent. He wanted to know about that gun. I told him I had sold it. We had made up a bill of sale with both signatures and the serial number. I showed it to the agent and made a copy for him. I never knew what it was all about. He wouldn't tell me anything. That was the last I heard about it.
I sold a gun to a co-worker back in the 70s. I had bought it from a dealer. A few years later I was paid a visit by an ATF agent. He wanted to know about that gun. I told him I had sold it. We had made up a bill of sale with both signatures and the serial number. I showed it to the agent and made a copy for him. I never knew what it was all about. He wouldn't tell me anything. That was the last I heard about it.
iiibdsiil
Member
Do those of you that are against it not buy new firearms for the same reason? Or are we being nit-picky over one gun when there are 20 others that are also logged?
I'm amazed there are so many people that don't want to be put on "the list." Especially when most can say "I sold it, and nope, I don't remember to who."
For the "I'm not a criminal" crowd, how the heck is some random person you met on the internet/newspaper/gunshow supposed to have any clue who you are? As taboo as we make guns (can't be on the FFLs paperwork, the black helicopters might get me!) we sure expect everyone to act like they are selling paper.
Next time I get carded for a pack of cigarettes, I'm going to tell the lady "I won't lie! Take my word!" We'll see how far that gets me.
I'm amazed there are so many people that don't want to be put on "the list." Especially when most can say "I sold it, and nope, I don't remember to who."
For the "I'm not a criminal" crowd, how the heck is some random person you met on the internet/newspaper/gunshow supposed to have any clue who you are? As taboo as we make guns (can't be on the FFLs paperwork, the black helicopters might get me!) we sure expect everyone to act like they are selling paper.
Next time I get carded for a pack of cigarettes, I'm going to tell the lady "I won't lie! Take my word!" We'll see how far that gets me.
DeepSouth
Random Guy
I have no problem buying new firearms from a dealer, and therefore doing the proper paperwork. Now if it wasn't required all the better. As of right now it is not required to use a FFL to sell a firearm FTF (in most states) The fact is that there is not normally a reason to use one so I wouldn't.
Now if someone was selling a gun to a unknown Mexican with a green card I can see the need, but under normal circumstances there is no need to add extra complications and money to a FTF sale, so I wouldn't do it.
rbernie
Contributing Member
A nit, perhaps, but I feel compelled to point out that this is not true; my upland game shotguns and rimfire target rifles and other such firearms were made expressly for a purpose OTHER than killing someone if necessary.
As far as I can tell from the comments made, laundering a purchase through an FFL has the intent of using the NICS system and 4473 as a means of absolving the seller of legal liability. In reality, I am aware of no instance where a seller found themselves the target of legal liability for a FTF private sale in which the seller followed Federal law (they had no reason to believe that the buyer was a prohibited person) and yet the buyer then went out and Did Bad Things with the firearm. I am aware of several instances in which a pistol that was sold via private FTF deal was later used in the commission of a crime, and the seller incurred no legal liability as a result.
I would very seriously question the benefit of using an FFL as an intermediary, and certainly find the stigma associated with private transactions to be unfortunate.
22-rimfire
Member
The question of liability or its significance to a seller on a FTF sale seems to be an age issue. The older you get, the more conscious you are that there are people out there who want to take whatever you've got. When I was 21, I really didn't care other than I tried to do things legally. But frankly at 21, I didn't know what was legal in terms of the letter of the law. There were no internet gun forums where these issues are discussed. As was mentioned, I knew I was no criminal. I can remember going to out of state shows and being with people buying both handguns and long guns... I didn't even know it was illegal to buy a handgun FTF if you were not a state resident as long as you were of legal age. I thought FTF was FTF; no records and no strings other than I knew you couldn't buy if you were a felon or sell knowingly to a felon. I suspect there are many who have similar experiences. Today, I would never do such a thing and seldom go to gunshows out of state just because I don't want to be tempted.
Aran
member
Nope.
Last gun I sold, we both parked in the same parking lot, shook hands, I passed the shotgun over, he got a "giddy schoolgirl" look in his eyes, looked it over, gave me the cash, we parted ways.
Just how it ought to be.
Last gun I sold, we both parked in the same parking lot, shook hands, I passed the shotgun over, he got a "giddy schoolgirl" look in his eyes, looked it over, gave me the cash, we parted ways.
Just how it ought to be.
c919
Member
^^^ Sounds like me when I bought my PPS in a MickeyD's parking lot a year ago.
THE DARK KNIGHT
Member
That would be good too. Regardless of whatever restrictions the state may or may not have, I simply would not sell a gun to anyone I don't know a little about, ever. A friend or co-worker or acquantance I would sell without an FFL present. But a random guy at a gunshow, or on the internet, etc. sorry I want to see a NICS, or a CCW. Or yeah, even a receipt saying he passed a NICS last month.
I know, I know, the gun is a tool. But I want to be sure I did not give that tool to someone that used it wrongly. Sure, they can get it somewhere else anyway. Let them. They won't get it from me.
The car analogy is not a good one because people typically buy cars to go places. Sure you get the occasional vehicular manslaughter or it gets used as a getaway, but that's a secondary purpose. The primary is transportation. A gun's primary purpose is to launch pieces of lead faster than the speed of sound.
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Shadow 7D
Member
Realize that there are other forms of ID that can show that you are not a felon, like a Voter registration card or a FFL (there are other types than just dealer 01), if you don't want to use a FFL and get a check the next question is why do you want the check, and are you open to alternatives.
THE DARK KNIGHT
Member
Yeah, Voter registration would work too. Just something to show that they haven't done anything bad yet.
Also, regardless of criminal record or not, I would also not sell to people if I simple don't feel they are responsible. Hate to stereotype, but if their pants are down at their knees or they look like a fiend, I'm not selling them a gun regardless of circumstances.
Also, regardless of criminal record or not, I would also not sell to people if I simple don't feel they are responsible. Hate to stereotype, but if their pants are down at their knees or they look like a fiend, I'm not selling them a gun regardless of circumstances.
For all the people who are worried about being on the "list" or the having government not know what guns you own, you must have never used a credit or debit card when purchasing ammo, hunting equipment or gun parts.
As for the topic. I have no issues with selling or refusing to sell to a person without an FFL transfer, nor do I have an issue purchasing that way, as long as the person who requires it pays for the transfer. I have refused to sell to people based on looks, some people just don't look or act right. If I do not want to do a face to face, based on that uneasy feeling down below, I offer to pay for an FFL transfer, if they refuse then I know I made the correct choice. I also must have a bill of sale.
If selling a handgun I do require a CCP.
I have never actually had a problem with anyone, ever, but I have my own set of guidelines that I follow.
As for the topic. I have no issues with selling or refusing to sell to a person without an FFL transfer, nor do I have an issue purchasing that way, as long as the person who requires it pays for the transfer. I have refused to sell to people based on looks, some people just don't look or act right. If I do not want to do a face to face, based on that uneasy feeling down below, I offer to pay for an FFL transfer, if they refuse then I know I made the correct choice. I also must have a bill of sale.
If selling a handgun I do require a CCP.
I have never actually had a problem with anyone, ever, but I have my own set of guidelines that I follow.
gyvel
Member
But how does the seller know that? Does he take your word for it?
evan price
Member
I've done quite a few FTF transaction with folks I've met on Teh INtarwebz and been quite happy so far.
I tend to deal with folks with Ohio CCW licenses; we both show each other our CCWs and that's due-diligence in the eyes of the law- not a felon, state resident, legal age to posess.
As far as something coming up someday from some unknown owner who knows how many times removed from me- well, I'll worry about that IF it ever happens.
Involving an FFL, to me, is only an un-necessary extra expense in terms of time and money in a simple, legal transaction. I'm not worried about "the list" because heck, anyone who posts on THR is on the list already let alone how many guns that get bought on 4473's. The List is nothing to worry about- yet.
I tend to deal with folks with Ohio CCW licenses; we both show each other our CCWs and that's due-diligence in the eyes of the law- not a felon, state resident, legal age to posess.
As far as something coming up someday from some unknown owner who knows how many times removed from me- well, I'll worry about that IF it ever happens.
Involving an FFL, to me, is only an un-necessary extra expense in terms of time and money in a simple, legal transaction. I'm not worried about "the list" because heck, anyone who posts on THR is on the list already let alone how many guns that get bought on 4473's. The List is nothing to worry about- yet.
It is fine Either way.. I wont sell a gun so I don't have an issue But if a FFL will stop a knock at the door asking for a gun I sold. Good. I can understand the FFL request. Just kinda makes you feel ok with a deal. If i evr sold a gun FTF im sure a FFL would be invilved. just to cover my a$$ and meke me feel good.. If sold i want out of my name ASAP.
I don't expect the seller to assume I'm a criminal until I prove otherwise. If I was selling a weapon and got a bad feeling about someone, I just wouldn't sell to them.
I do understand the concerns of liability expressed in this thread but not the idea that we assume fellow citizens are criminals until they produce their papers.
-Chris
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
My 2% of a buck...
Back in the day...private transactions between friends...casual aquaintances...and total strangers was pretty commonplace. There were more guns sold in gun show parking lots than in the exhibit halls...and everybody knew it. My own father used to buy/sell/trade guns with the county sheriff. That's how loose things were...back in "the day" even after the 1968 GCA.
Nowadays, it's not quite as loose, and if there isn't an actual liability...it's assumed, and probably with good cause. I have a few close friends that I will buy/sell/trade with, but no more causual aquaintances, and no more strangers...period...without an FFL holder involved. No exceptions.
I know these people well enough to vouch for their character, their responsibility, and their sobriety. I have a few friends who drink to excess, and...although never charged with any assault type crimes, they're really not in full control of their sometimes volitile tempers when they're drinking...so I don't do any business with them, though they've asked me to "Be on the lookout for a good deal on a pistol for me."
Things have changed, and not for the better, I'm afraid.
Back in the day...private transactions between friends...casual aquaintances...and total strangers was pretty commonplace. There were more guns sold in gun show parking lots than in the exhibit halls...and everybody knew it. My own father used to buy/sell/trade guns with the county sheriff. That's how loose things were...back in "the day" even after the 1968 GCA.
Nowadays, it's not quite as loose, and if there isn't an actual liability...it's assumed, and probably with good cause. I have a few close friends that I will buy/sell/trade with, but no more causual aquaintances, and no more strangers...period...without an FFL holder involved. No exceptions.
I know these people well enough to vouch for their character, their responsibility, and their sobriety. I have a few friends who drink to excess, and...although never charged with any assault type crimes, they're really not in full control of their sometimes volitile tempers when they're drinking...so I don't do any business with them, though they've asked me to "Be on the lookout for a good deal on a pistol for me."
Things have changed, and not for the better, I'm afraid.
Anyone can be sued by anyone, of course. If you were unfortunate enough to be the last guy papered on a gun that ended up shooting a schoolyard, yeah, I can see where you're going to have to answers some questions. My first answer is "I'd like to consult with an attorney" and then I guess I'd take it from there. If I legally sell a firearm to an individual and I have no reason to believe he's a prohibited person, I'm just fine from a legal perspective. This doesn't mean that the parents of all those poor dead kids won't discover my name and, all of a sudden, I'm the merchant of death. If I happen to be the filthy rich merchant of death, I'm gonna get sued.
Imagine if you customized Mustang cars and put a hemmy this or a hemmy that and blow out this and blow out that on a car (you can tell I know nothing about cars!) and made the top speed 200 mph on the car... and then you sold it to an 18 year old kid... who subsequently went out and killed himself and three friends. Yeah, you're getting sued. Especially if you're the filthy rich merchant of mustangs.
Meh? Me? Unless I'm getting a smoken' deal, I don't buy too many guns in a FTF scenario. And it's rare that I sell 'em - although I'd have no reservations about it.
22-rimfire
Member
My advice on FTF handgun sales is to be very careful. It is not just liability if the firearm is used in a crime, there are the other "questions" on the Form 4473 that have equal weight under Federal Law. The seller must have no reasonable suspicion the buyer is not elgible to purchase a particular weapon. If you start the 50-question thing with a buyer, you probably aren't going to sell a firearm in many cases. So be careful.
Stings happen and an otherwise honest citizen could easily be caught doing something that is technically not legal with firearm transactions. Mayor Bloomberg is out there with his millions financing his crusade. I know I don't want to be on TV as an example of making an illegal firearm purchase or sale FTF.
Things have changed and they aren't for the better.
Stings happen and an otherwise honest citizen could easily be caught doing something that is technically not legal with firearm transactions. Mayor Bloomberg is out there with his millions financing his crusade. I know I don't want to be on TV as an example of making an illegal firearm purchase or sale FTF.
Things have changed and they aren't for the better.
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