Andrew Wyatt
Member
The AR wins on range, too. Maximum effective range under field conditions for a garand is about 300 yards.
An ar shooter with an acog can get good hits out to six or eight.
Would you take the AR15 or M1 Garand?
- Thread starter Schofield3
- Start date
- Status
The AR wins on range, too. Maximum effective range under field conditions for a garand is about 300 yards.
An ar shooter with an acog can get good hits out to six or eight.
speaksoftly
Member
AR hands down. The only concern I ever have with my AR is derived from some of the horror stories I hear in terms of jams.
Not in a million years. If I were to stick with a 5.56 rifle and have any one I'd take one TAR-21 over ten AR's. Anyone who thinks that the AR is still the end all rifle hasn't been getting out much IMHO.
I LOVE the range on the 5.56 round. That matched with the super low recoil makes it a mean round in my thoughts. I know people gripe because it's a varmint round but I'd love to see them rapid fire accurate rounds downrange with that 30-06.
The M1 is a superb rifle, it is accurate, reliable, and powerful. There are some drawbacks to it: first as issued, it uses M1-M2 ball ammunition, which is not encountered often these days, it is also dependent on those 8 rd en-bloc clips, also not frequently encountered. If you get separated from your source of en-bloc clips and are involved in some sort of defensive/offensive action with your M1, you will be SOL. The AR is by far the better choice of an all around defensive/offensive rifle in today's world, for numerous reasons.
SharpsDressedMan
member
"the ar is superior to the garand both in penetration and at long range" HUH? Let me tell you a story. My dad served in the Phillipines in WWII, and was issued a carbine while serving as an 81mm mortarman. He didn't trust the carbine, and quickly acquired a Garand, and fielded the 10lb rifle and ammo in addition to his 40lb extra load of the mortar baseplate. While in the Phillipines, they overheard a radio transmission by Tokyo Rose, who was reporting that the Americans were violating treaties, cheating, BLAH-BLAH-BLAH, by using a new weapon that could shoot around trees. He said all the G.I.'s were looking at each other trying to figure out what the hell she was talking about. It took a few days, but then it struck them that they had recently been using .30-06 AP ammunition, intended for the belt fed machineguns, and the armor piercing ammo allowed them to shoot at the Japanese when hiding behind coconut and other jungle trees, and shoot right through the trees. The Jap soldiers saw their comrades take cover, and then fall over and die after being shot, so they THOUGHT the bullets were going around the tree and killing them. Pretty good psy-ops, if only it had been intended. Tell me, WHEN does a .223 out-penetrate or out-distance an '06?
USSR
Member
Not frequently encountered? Hmm, the CMP has MILLIONS of rounds of HXP M2 ball ammo (on clips) available at a good price to anyone who wants it.
Don
robby101
Member
If I could have my AR in 6.8, then the AR, if not, the Garand.
Sheesh is this a car forum, gun forum, or analogy forum.
I'll take the AR, the ergos are better, and because of that I shoot it better. I just don't care for clunky, antiquated, large caliber rifles. I don't care if I ever shoot another M1a, or garand.
I'm sure someone will be along to rip me for my own personal opinions, and I'll take it to heart and change my mind promptly. Thanks in advance.
I'll take the AR, the ergos are better, and because of that I shoot it better. I just don't care for clunky, antiquated, large caliber rifles. I don't care if I ever shoot another M1a, or garand.
I'm sure someone will be along to rip me for my own personal opinions, and I'll take it to heart and change my mind promptly. Thanks in advance.
General Geoff
Member
see, think of the AR as a 5.8ghz cordless phone, and the Garand as a rotary dial....
What a BS statement if I ever heard one. Toss a scout rail on the M1 or use an M1D and you have an optics capable M1 as well. Neither one in standard form with standard bulk ammo was/is a precision rifle. Toss in a little bit of aftermarket work with some match ammo and they both become capable far past most shooters' capabilities. If you truly don't think you can hit a target with an M1 and good ammo past 300 yards you live in a reality different than mine.
Again, we aren't talking battle conditions here. We are talking about a SHOOTING RANGE rifle for casual shooting. It doesn't matter which did what in which war, which is a better fit of which offensive/defensive situation. The only situation that matters is the SHOOTING RANGE for casual shooting. Why must we compare everything to how it performs in battle? We aren't talking about taking a rifle to battle.
loadedround
Member
I have found both the M1 Garand and the M1A to be much better one shot Zombie rifles than any .223 semi auto.
Wrong, wrong, wrong. You can shoot any 150gr to 180gr (and possibly higher) .30-06 ammo you want in a garand. All it takes is $30 to buy one of these:
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=777146
amd6547
Member
I like the AR a lot...I own one with a second upper, so I can have a 16" shorty or a 20" full length.
But, to say that an AR is in someway more powerful than an M1 Garand is just wrong.
In fact, our troops in Afghanistan would be better off to have a couple extra M1's in their humvees right now...they could use them in the longrange battles they are fighting.
BTW, my Dad fought in europe in WWII. He also spoke about the ability of 30.06 AP ammo to go through trees, and how it could take a wall apart.
But, to say that an AR is in someway more powerful than an M1 Garand is just wrong.
In fact, our troops in Afghanistan would be better off to have a couple extra M1's in their humvees right now...they could use them in the longrange battles they are fighting.
BTW, my Dad fought in europe in WWII. He also spoke about the ability of 30.06 AP ammo to go through trees, and how it could take a wall apart.
Maybe if you're punching paper, but when it comes to killing at range, not so much. At 500 yards, a 168 gr. .30-06 delivers more than triple the energy on target than a 62 gr. .223. (1,287 ft.-lbs vs. 384). That 384 ft-lbs is well down into handgun territory and men survive handgun wounds with dismaying frequency. The tables I'm referencing only go to 500, but just take a look at the way the velocity drops off on the .223 compared to the .30-06 and the killing energy comparison just gets worse for the .223 as range increases.
Here is my reference:
http://www.fusionammo.com/ballistics/rifle_compare.aspx
ETA: I forgot to mention that with the .30-06 you also get less wind drift and nearly identical trajectory.
Andrew Wyatt
Member
That is fine and dandy, but if you can't make hits at that distance, it doesn't matter. with the garand, you're stuck with a 2.5-4 moa shooter and irons. at 500 yards, that's 12-20 inches.
And what does the average M4 clone shoot at 500 yards using surplus ammo and irons as well? I have a hard time believing most M4's shoot better than that at 500 yards with basic ammo. If we get into handloads, the groups for both tighten up. The M1d as well as the scout scope mounts bring the M1 into the world of optics. Its a bit of an unfair comparison when you allow one rifle an optic and the other the issued sights.
Andrew Wyatt
Member
the USMC issues the m16a4 with an Acog on it to everyone. I don't think its unfair to compare as issued rifles against each other.
Most ar-15s i've seen shot were definitely sub 2 MOA shooters.
Most ar-15s i've seen shot were definitely sub 2 MOA shooters.
SharpsDressedMan
member
How about a shoot off? I am in NE Ohio and I have a Garand. Anyone else want to get in on this? We'll find a range that will let us on for the day, and conduct a few gun to gun challenges. Hey Andrew, if you bring an actual issue M16A4 with USMC optics on it, we'll let you use it. I will be bringing an M1, govt issue, as is....no mods.
Andrew Wyatt
Member
if you pay for airfare, lodging, and ammo, i'll do it.
Airfaire is 969 dollars from my local airport to ohio.
Justin
Moderator Emeritus
Garands are more than welcome to come out and play at our monthly Tactical Rifle matches. Check the Competition Forum for dates and location.
In the time I've been shooting the match, I've only ever seen one Garand show up on the line.
In the time I've been shooting the match, I've only ever seen one Garand show up on the line.
Andrew Wyatt
Member
A better idea is to set up a course of fire and throw an actual match. I'm sure someone on the forum could come up with a course of fire that's a good test of man and equipment.
Again, this is for a range gun, not a competition gun, not a tactical match rifle, but a range piece for fun. Optics can be put on either variety for range use or irons could be put on either variety. Pick the one that sounds more fun at the range, regardless if the USMC uses them or if the Tactical matches use them.
Last edited:
SharpsDressedMan
member
If you are waiting on money from me, I guess you won't be making it. We do have some matches here, where Garands, M14's, and AR's get to shoot against each other. They hold them at a little place on the Lake, called Camp Perry. I have seen some fine shooting by some fine guys (USMC, US ARMY, etc), and I have shot next to them. As far as accuracy and range, the M1's and M14's do just fine. At CQB, it would be interesting to say the least...don't forget that the bigger boys can punch though things that the 5.56 can't, and that gives them an edge in jungles, light cover, etc. I have also watched a 5.56 move way off target very fast when the wind kicks up unexpectedly. It seems that ALL factors are a compromise, and the shooter has to be prepared for the limitations of his or her rifle. Yeah, some big guns carry less ammo, and some small caliber guns come up short against cover, etc. But for handling, the skill of the shooter with a larger bore can easily out perform some other lighter cartridge in a gun in a less competent shooters hand. All of the US fighting rifles have good points, and good ergonomics. Put an aimpoint on a scout type mount on an M1 (yeah, they make mounts), and all of a sudden the playing field changes again. Have an optic go dead, or get damaged, and the playing field changes again. Iron sight to iron sight, the accuracy results are probably minimally different, when all ranges and results are averaged. It would be a great test, and even then, it may not be "the final word" on the subject.
SharpsDressedMan
member
Beware of the man with only eight rounds.......he MAY be scared enough to make them count!
Quentin
Member
I love the Garand and the M14 but had to choose an AR first. Very satisfied with that decision, no buyer's remorse at all - it's a much more versatile rifle. But still hope someday to get an M1A.
- Status
