Wow, we .45 cal ML shooters are outcasts/pariahs it seems...

[GunGoBoom]

Note: Mods, I purposely chose NOT to put this in the Black Powder shooting forums, because the vast majority of folks that hang out there have proven, for better or worse, that they are ONLY interesting in discussing non-inline, traditional true black powder front stuffers (from a powder horn, while wearing a coonskin hat & a bowie knife). The condescending attitudes over there are thick and palpable when inlines are brought up. So please do not move it there. However, I am one of (apparently) millions upon millions of hunter who, OTOH, view the ML season as little more than a way to extend rifle season, and thus want every possible advantage, which includes inline/209 guns, optical sights, and yes, even smokeless powder which is legal here. With that in mind.....

Man oh man do I feel like a pariah trying to find accessories in local stores for my new .45 cal ML. There are gazillions upon gazillions of 50 cal brushes, mops, worms, jags, powder, pre-formed powder charges, etc., etc. But aside from bullets and powder, I find virtually no ramrod accessories or anything else for .45s for that matter. I just can't figure out why they sell the guns in the first place if so few people buy the accessories that they can't justify carrying the products.

Just venting/sharing some frustration.....

 

[Lee Woiteshek]

I fell for the .45 hype too. Bought a Knight Disc Extreme. It was supposed to be the next death ray. Less drop, longer range blah, blah, blah. Went to sight it with 777 and it shoots patterns instead of groups. Ammo that I want to shoot in it (and anything else) is nothing less than an adventure to find. I'm going to try American Pioneer powder this year, and if it still can't group I'll make it a tomato stake. I almost had a stroke trying to get the breech plug out, took three grown men and tools. I'm real close to just chucking it and going back to the 50.

 

[dakotasin]

ggb- i'm not into muzzleloaders, and have no desire to get into them because i have ample opportunity to hunt w/ regular rifles and bows.

i think the reason you are having troubles:
in s.d., muzzleloader seasons run after rifle season, which is after bow season. iow, the critters have been pretty picked over.

in s.d., 45 cal is not legal for big game (i could be mistaken here, but i am pretty sure). that means more stuff is available to the legal sizes (50).

in s.d., optics are not legal on muzzleloaders (and i ardently support that law).

basically, especially if my caliber assumption is true, i've gotta believe that other states feel the same way - which makes 50 the more popular choice - which makes 50 the one to have, and the one w/ all the accessories, which relegates the 45's and smaller to nothing more than small game/curio...

 

[Art Eatman]

I never got into BP stuff, but I vaguely recall from reading--decades ago--that .45 or smaller was regarded as a small game diameter because of the weight of the .45 ball as compared to the larger diameters.

I can't see where diameter and accuracy are related...

Art

 

[smokemaker]

I don't know anybody who bought a .45 and had it tackdriving right from the get-go. It seems (at least in my opinion) that the .45 doesn't like to be pushed too fast before accuracy falls off badly. I'm happy in retrospect that I got a .50 during the .45 craze. I figured I could get a .45 later, but prolly won't now.

Oh, and yeah, the BP forum really does seem to be sidehammer/roundball heavy, and it sucks to be blasted for having plastic on a muzzleloader. I used to snip back, but no longer care about anybody else's closed mindedness on the subject.

 

[karlsgunbunker]

I think the .45 was a fad. I had the same problem with my .45 Kentucky Longrifle, everyone had .50 stuff but no .45. My smoke pole won't take pyrodex. Try finding real black powder.

Back to point. Dixie Gun Works it takes more planning than going to Wal-mart but they have everything in every caliber. Great people too, I plan to go buy next time I'm in Tenn.

http://www.dixiegunworks.com/

Buy the catalog it's worth it.

P.S. I also have an Inline $80 otd at Wally world. I know sacriligeous.

 

[priv8ter]

Follow the money

You have to look at the fact that .45 is not a legal caliber for blackpowder hunting in all states. Kind of sucks for the folks where it is legal, but it explains why stuff is hard to find for you. I mean, from a profitiablility standpoint, it's hard to expect a manufacturer to make something that can only be sold in a few states instead of something that can be sold all around the nation.

greg

 

[Sunray]

GunGoBoom, you're right. You're an evil, despictable, kind of guy for even thinking of using a rifle that was used with no fuss whatsoever prior to the need for heavier calibres to deal with buffalo, griz, etc after the Louisiana Purchase. .50 and .58 calibre rifles were unheard of prior to the early opening of the American West. .45 calibres were the big calibres. Most Eastern rifles were .36 calibre or so. History is your friend.
However, as evil as you are, go here. They make .451" lead balls for you nasty, evil people. http://www.nationalbullet.com/index.php?name=Misc_Products
And have a look at your State's hunting regs to see what they think is adequate for hunting.

 

[Harve Curry]

Isn't the 45 cal inline muzzle loaders made for saboted bullets of .400" cal.?
The idea being high velocity, flatter shooting, well constructed .40 cal bullets?

Not for round balls or plain lead bullets.

 

[Lee Woiteshek]

Yep, with saboted rounds it was supposed to have been the ultimate deer killer. The black powder community just yawned. As I mentioned before gonna try another powder, a cooler 209 primer, and am kicking around the idea of another bullet before I get rid of mine. Don't get me wrong, the .45 will do the job, mine hasn't been as accurate as the 50 I got rid of. I'm not one of those lucky fellows who has a lot of time to tinker with the weapon to get it up and running. I normally have time to get to the place I want to hunt, set up camp, check zero, and go. My .45 has me talking to myself.

 

[Harve Curry]

I have not checked this on my chronograph but I read that pellots are less efficient then loose powder. 1/3 less efficient. Another words 100gr powder will give about the same velocity as 130gr pellots. Also loose powder is more consistent burninig qualities and usually better accuracy can be obtained. This info was for Pyrodex and 777.

Shoot some groups with the same brand of loose powder and see.
Try smaller charges of the loose powder.
Make sure no lube is on the base of the sabot or even close. I've seen that mistake made a few times.
Make sure the sabot material hasn't stripped and fouled the rifling.
Check your scope. Shoot some iron sight groups vs the scope groups from a sand bag bench rest.

 

[GunGoBoom]

Shoot some groups with the same brand of loose powder and see.
Try smaller charges of the loose powder.
Make sure no lube is on the base of the sabot or even close. I've seen that mistake made a few times.
Make sure the sabot material hasn't stripped and fouled the rifling.
Check your scope. Shoot some iron sight groups vs the scope groups from a sand bag bench rest.

Thank you; good information.

Yeah, when I got it, I was thinking "saboted .400 bullets" for a better trajectory & penetration, but I've also heard a lot of good about the powerbelt bullets, so bought some of them to try first. So here I end up with .45 cal bullets, the same diameter I used last year in the .50 cal muzzleloader (.451s in sabots). So it's about the same ballistics but potentially with a better seal of the bullet to the bore/rifling, and therefore perhaps more spin and/or velocity. I dunno. If the pellets are less efficient, then I'll probably try 100 gr loads with these Tri-7 pellets I have. They are in 50 gr pellets. Unfortunately, to my disappointment, they didn't have any 30 gr pellets in .45 cal. It would have been nice to try a 60 gr load and a 90 gr load without messing with loose powder. But that is not to be I guess. If I get just horrible groups with the pellets, then yes, I will definitely try working up some loose powder loads. I'm going to require 4 or 5" 100-yard groups before I take this on a hunt. Thanks again, and keep the info coming please. I'm still a relative newb to ML'ing.

karlsgun and sunray, thanks for the links...anything with dixie in the name can't be bad.

BTW, before this thread, I'd never heard such a thing of a state not allowing .45 cal for deer - wth? In my state, reading from the regs as I type, "Muzzleloading rifles: .40 caliber or larger...."

 

[Harve Curry]

If the loose powder works out, you can still put your pre-measured powder charges/bullet in the plastic speed loaders same as the pellots.

 

[scout26]

Hey GGB,

Not sure what state you are in but, check out http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=157556.

Maybe you can trade him your smokepole or sell yours for enough to pay for this one......





Ya know what the nice part about beating your head against the wall is ???

It feels good when you stop.

 

[GunGoBoom]

Ha ha; very true. Update: Took the scope off after I couldn't get it zeroed; then tested the rifle with 100 grains of triple 7 under 275 gr powerbelts - got some decent groups with it - one group was about 4" at 80 yards with 2 of the 5 shots within 3/16"" of one another and very near the bull (within 1/2"). This with iron sights. It and I may be able to do better with a scope. But good enough for bambi, esp. considering the longest shot I'd be looking at round where I'm hunting ML is 40 or 50 yards. So I'm very please with it, and it's going with me the next 3 weekends - this weekend is a controlled doe-only hunt I drew into - those are usually created due to overpopulation problems, so maybe I'll have some luck down there with a tasty doe.

 

[Harve Curry]

So what kind of scope was it?

 

[Michael Courtney]

I've got a .45 caliber muzzleloader, and it is a tack driver. I've gotten 1-2 MOA groups with almost every load I've tried. It really likes the 180 grain .357 XTP's and the 240 grain .40 dead centers. Most of my loads are 120 grains or less of 777.

I like the gun a lot and I've killed at least a dozen deer with it.

An additional area where the .45 excels is in low recoil loads for inexperienced hunters. 40 grains of powder push a 180 grain bullet to 1300 FPS or so, which is much more manageable than a 20 gauge, and much more powerful than a 28 gauge or .410. Since most shotgun-only zones allow for muzzleloaders also, it's a viable option for new hunters who can't quite handle the 20 gauge recoil. I've experimented with dropping the bullet weight down as low as 115 grains, and both accuracy and terminal performance are good with the right bullet.

Michael Courtney

 

[zeke]

Do not currently have any blackpowder firearms, or experience in such. Would like to ask several questions however, because would like to get one for additional State Blackpowder season, and just happen to like the 45 caliber.

1-Does anyone make a 45 caliber percussion with the external hammer in wood stock semi authentic style (not the Kentucky long rifle style)? See these in .50 caliber and above, but only am seeing the .45 in newer styles.

2-What is the actual bore diam of 45 caliber blackpowder rifles? Could a 255 gn lrnp be used in one?

3-If could find a 45 percussion, would likey be interested in longer and heavyier lead conical flat point type bullets, rather than round ball. Does this require a special twist rate in barrel, or make any sense?

Thank you for your patience.

 

[Michael Courtney]

As far as I know, the .45's are available in the newer styles. Too bad.

Michael Courtney