Writer jailed for breaking holocaust denial law.

Status
Not open for further replies.
GEM said:
I basically agree with Preacherman. His goal is not scholarly but to promote hatred and violence against innocents.

I don't think you folks are really grasping the "fire in a crowded theater" exception. The exception is NOT carved out anytime expression is intended to promote hatred and violence. It is ONLY carved out where the expression ITSELF poses a direct and immediate risk of harm. It's a VERY narrow exception. If it is used to ban all expression calling for or supporting hatred and violence, then all of us would have to avoid advocating things like war, self defense or even simply letting off steam about the neighbors we'd like to beat with sticks.
 
Preacherman said:
The US courts, from the beginning, and most governments that I know of, have all insisted that rights are subject to regulation, provided that the regulation is not so strict as to infringe the right in essence. In other words, the rights are not without limitation. I agree with the latter perspective, and from that perspective, have no problem with Irving being called to account for the consequences of his lies.

The right is not unlimited, but to ban a form of expression for obvious POLITICAL reasons is the worst kind of limitation. This is exactly what the ban on revisionist Holocaust history is. Whether you and I like it or not, those who deny the Holocaust are taking a clear political position, not just a historical one. Their expression should be granted the maximum possible protection, not banned. If the state can ban their political point of view because the state thinks it is dangerous, then there are no limits on what the state can ban. Promoting hatred and violence is one of the most important forms of free expression. See the Declaration of Independence for a famous example of promoting hatred and violence against an established government.

It is if it can be shown to cause demonstrable harm. The Austrians have determined that it does. For them.

No they didn't. They just banned it so they don't have to hear it or argue about it anymore. As I've been pointing out over and over again in this thread, the anti-denial laws have nothing to do with protecting Jews and everything to do with quashing any detailed analysis of what actually DID happen. The subjects of the state are told to accept the party line about gas chambers and evil Germans or GO TO JAIL. You accept this as a valid choice?
 
Typhoon said:
It is if it can be shown to cause demonstrable harm. The Austrians have determined that it does. For them.
Good thing then, that we live in America instead of a country ruled by a totalitarian govt such as Austria. Hmmmm?
Biker
 
I'm pretty thankful! Any other nation would have thrown my crazy behind in jail long ago--what with all my stockpiled ammunition and unhealthy fixation on firearms :D
 
Cosmoline said:
I'm pretty thankful! Any other nation would have thrown my crazy behind in jail long ago--what with all my stockpiled ammunition and unhealthy fixation on firearms :D
We're in agreement.
:)
Biker
 
I'm astonished at how many posters in this thread just don't read arguments, or ignore what has been clearly stated. Let me try to put things as bluntly as possible, in simple words, in the hope that my point can be understood.

1. Free speech, as speech, is protected under all circumstances. However, speech can (and often does) have consequences in the real world. It is the consequences of speech that concern us in this particular case.

Yes, but the consequences for excersizing your right should never be that 'you go to jail', because then the government is repressing that right by definition.

2. If true speech leads to negative consequences, there is a defence of truth. For example, if a theater is on fire, and I shout "Fire!" to warn people, and some of them are hurt in the rush for the exits, I have an affirmative defence against being sued because there really was a fire, and they would have been hurt if I hadn't warned them.

Not true. A crime has been committed ONLY if the accussed committed the action AND had intent to harm others. The "truthfullness" of the statement is irrelevent.

3. If false, untrue speech leads to negative consequences, there is NO defence of truth. In the theater example, if there was no fire, yet I shouted "Fire!", and people were hurt in the rush for the exits, I would be legally liable for their injuries, because I abused my right of free speech by lying, they acted on what I had told them, and therefore the consequences of my lying would be (quite properly) laid to my account, not theirs.

If you were lying (different from merely saying something untrue), then you had intent to injure others. You could have spoken an 'untruth' without criminal intent if you truly believed there was a fire, for example, you smelled smoke. Then the action is not criminal, but merely a mistake.

4. In Irving's case (as is clearly documented in the historical record), he has lied about the Holocaust in many ways, and has then used his lies to applaud and encourage neo-Nazi groups, spread anti-Semitic views and propaganda, etc. Some of those groups have engaged in illegal activities against Jews, including assault, etc., as part of their campaigns. In other words, Irving has used his "right of free speech" to lie and spread untruths. These untruths have resulted in actual harm to others, and the breaking of the law.

As shown above, merely making untrue statements is not criminal.The accused must have committed the action and have intent to do harm. If Irving committed the action (denying the Holocaust) he has not yet committed a crime. The prosecutors need to prove, beyond a reasonable doubt, that he also had the intent to do harm to others. Merely irritating people is not 'harm'. Hurting someone's feelings is not 'harm'. If it were, how many people here would be in jail for breaking up with their girlfriend or boyfriend?

As a result, I maintain that Irving has no right whatsoever to claim "free speech" as a defence for what he has done. I do not believe that the right to "free speech" is a universal, unregulated right - I agree with our Courts, which have consistently held that any right is subject to reasonable regulation.

Over the last 250 years one can find a legal opinion to support just about anything, including 'people are property'. This is why we argue the Constitutionality, rather than building one unjust law on top of another unjust law.

As I said earlier, I think the real point with many of those posting here is that they do not believe in any regulation of rights. They believe that a right is absolute and unfettered, and that therefore Irving cannot be called to account for his "speech". I don't agree with them (and neither do the US Courts).

Yup, we agree on something. This is the source of our disagreement - I believe that there are no just "regulation" of rights. Unalienable means just that - unalienable. When the governement has "regulated" an unalienable right, it has in fact restricted and repressed that right, which is by definition unConstitutional.
__________________
 
Yes, but the consequences for excersizing your right should never be that 'you go to jail', because then the government is repressing that right by definition.

Not necessarily. If it is agreed that such speech does demonstrably harm a society, then I have no problem with it being regulated. It depends.

I am a firearms owner. My shooting is regulated. I can only use deadly force when warranted. I have no problem with that, either. Within reason. It depends…
 
Typhoon said:
Not necessarily. If it is agreed that such speech does demonstrably harm a society, then I have no problem with it being regulated. It depends.

I am a firearms owner. My shooting is regulated. I can only use deadly force when warranted. I have no problem with that, either. Within reason. It depends…

Again, one must also have intent to harm, and do real harm (not hurt someone's feelings).

Your shooting is "regulated", but it shouldn't be. If you shoot someone without just cause the crime should be "murder", not over-excersizing your right to keep and bear arms.
 
1. Free speech, as speech, is protected under all circumstances. However, speech can (and often does) have consequences in the real world. It is the consequences of speech that concern us in this particular case.
I distinctly remember reading a newspaper article, back when I was in high school, which had in it an interview with a high-ranking member of the Soviet government (back when there was a Soviet government). Wish I still had the article. The interviewer asked the Soviet official about free speech in the USSR. "Oh, we have freedom of speech!" the official explained. "It's what happens after you speak that is sometimes the issue . We do have to make sure that these people are not enemies of the state."

Don't worry about it. I'm sure it will never get that bad here.

pax

And how we burned in the camps latter, thinking: What would things have been like if every Security operative, when he went out at night to make an arrest, had been uncertain whether he would return alive and had to say good-bye to his family? Or if, during periods of mass arrests, as for example in Leningrad, when they arrested a quarter of the entire city, people had not simply sat there in their lairs, paling with terror at every bang of the downstairs door and at every step on the staircase, but had understood they had nothing left to lose and had boldly set up in the downstairs hall an ambush of half a dozen people with axes, hammers, polkers, or whatever else was at hand? After all, you knew ahead of time that those bluecaps were out at night for no good purpose. And you could be sure ahead of time that you'd be cracking the skull of a cutthroat. Or what about the Black Maria sitting out there on the street with one lonely chauffeur -- what if it had been driven off or its tires spiked. The Organs would very quickly have suffered a shortage of officers and transport and, notwithstanding all of Stalin's thirst, the cursed machine would have ground to a halt! If... if... We didn't love freedom enough. And even more -- we had no awareness of the real situation. We spent ourselves in one unrestrained outburst in 1917, and then we hurried to submit. We submitted with pleasure! .... We purely and simply deserved everything that happened afterward. -- Aleksandr Isayevich Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago
 
I've never found the "Fire!" in a crowded theater situation a very convincing example. If people don't exit calmly and in an orderly manner, whose fault is that?

How about if I hand you a loaded gun and tell you that it's unloaded? If you have a subsequent ND, is that my fault for lying to you? Can I claim free speech?

Can someone come up with a better example that supports the notion that I should be liable for speech that initiates harm?
 
Again, what this argument boils down to is the difference between those who favor rights that are absolute, unfettered and unregulated, and those who believe that regulation is not a bad thing, provided that it's not so severe as to infringe upon the right in question.

Every right carries with it a corresponding duty, and every freedom carries with it a corresponding responsibility. I have the right to vote - but I must exercise that right with intelligence and preparation, not throw it away. I have the freedom of speech - but I must speak with due regard for honesty and the consequences of my words.

I guess there are two extremes. On one end, there are those who believe in no restrictions whatsoever upon rights - the rights are sovereign and "untouchable". This, in essence, must inevitably lead to anarchy, as no-one can infringe on anyone's "rights", even though their exercise of those rights might hurt others. On the other end, there are those who place all their emphasis on duties and responsibilities, which are so onerous as to infringe the rights with which they're associated. This leads to fascism and dictatorship.

I think the "middle way" is to emphasize rights with duties, and freedoms with responsibility. Both sides are equally important. This is why our courts have always ruled that any right is subject to regulation - the right carries with it the duty and responsibility to use it wisely and without causing harm to others.
 
boofus,
can you please elaborate a little more..what has been your experience under a fascist regime...having close friends from spain and yugoslavia..i'd sure like to hear some details..granted i'm no political science major myself, but i've been around..i'm all for learning from everybody..thank you;) as one who has lived/visited other countries most americans would be:what: at what our notion of free speech means to those that are/have been long oppressed..i' am grateful for living in the USA. i would'nt trade it for nada!!:cool:
 
I think we all over-playing our own degree of "Free Speech" in Amerika

I seem to recall that the government has curtailed the alleged Free Speech in America. Hate speech = Hate Crime. I recall a certain young woman jailed for not giving up her source regarding the alleged "outing" of a CIA operative. Where is the free speech, free expression and free press in Amerika? Do we have these, yes, to a limited--limited and governmentally controlled degree.

We USED to have them wholly, and the only controls were those social controls placed by society. These freedoms were taken away right after the right to own guns was taken away, in fact, we don't even have full freedom of association. Try to take a felon hunting with you, see what happens. No, my friends, I think we are in love with these ideals, but we no longer possess them in full. I could cite no less than a dozen such limits to full freedom, but I am sure others will chime in. This is simply one more reason to begin looking outside the Dimmokrats and Republikans for our next President. Some independent who values what we used to have, and who is willing to fight to get it back, beginning with the repeal of the "Unpatriotic Act".

Talk about your propaganda and "talking heads", good grief, Uncle Sam isn't never was even a real person! It's a shame that we have been so willing to let the government take from us what the government called on (via Uncle Sam) to defend over how many years? Shame on us! Shame on the U.S.!

Excuse me, I'll be right back...Unkle Sahm is knocking at my door...saying something about reporting for "social reconditioning" because I posted this.

Doc2005
 
Not necessarily. If it is agreed that such speech does demonstrably harm a society, then I have no problem with it being regulated. It depends.

Thats a loaded concept. How do you even define what a "society" is, and how do you measure harm to it? THis argument could very easily be applied to any type of speach against a government.
 
i believe we confuse the terms liberties with freedoms..:banghead:
liberty is just that free..no if's, and's or but's...:eek:
freedoms are defined by laws in the U.S that = constitution..:neener:
liberty defined by law is the price we civilized people pay given what some people will take it upon themselves to do when they think they have the absolute liberty to do so. i wanna say Voltaire, maybe Rosseau...:scrutiny:
did i mention i luv the U.S.A...:D
i respect the fact that we can agree to disagree/debate/discuss/criticize/examine/compare/contrast each other's viewpoints..in other countries you are allowed to do the same, just will only do so from six feet under. shalom, y'all!
 
Preacherman said:
Again, what this argument boils down to is the difference between those who favor rights that are absolute, unfettered and unregulated, and those who believe that regulation is not a bad thing, provided that it's not so severe as to infringe upon the right in question.

Every right carries with it a corresponding duty, and every freedom carries with it a corresponding responsibility. I have the right to vote - but I must exercise that right with intelligence and preparation, not throw it away. I have the freedom of speech - but I must speak with due regard for honesty and the consequences of my words.

I guess there are two extremes. On one end, there are those who believe in no restrictions whatsoever upon rights - the rights are sovereign and "untouchable". This, in essence, must inevitably lead to anarchy, as no-one can infringe on anyone's "rights", even though their exercise of those rights might hurt others. On the other end, there are those who place all their emphasis on duties and responsibilities, which are so onerous as to infringe the rights with which they're associated. This leads to fascism and dictatorship.

I think the "middle way" is to emphasize rights with duties, and freedoms with responsibility. Both sides are equally important. This is why our courts have always ruled that any right is subject to regulation - the right carries with it the duty and responsibility to use it wisely and without causing harm to others.

As a representative of the other "extreme", I want to clarify a few things.

First, I do believe that unalienable rights are "sovereign and untouchable", but this need not lead to anarchy. Why? For one thing, there are only a few unalienable rights (listed in the Constitution and Bill of Rights). One may have other rights but they are not necessarily unalienable.

Second, emphasizing the responsibility associated with the right is fine, but under no circumstance is that responisibility to be construed to mean giving up said right. For example, Clinton said we should be responsible with our Second Amendment rights, but then erred when he said that being responsible meant that we should ban assault rifles.

Another example: you said you have the right to vote but the responsibility not to throw your vote away. Your responsibility did not include taking away your right to vote if you did throw your vote away. Your right to vote is absolute.

The duty that goes along with Free Speech is NOT having your Freedom repressed if you speak an untruth, the duty IS standing up and countering the kooks in active debate when they speak untruths. In that light, censoring someone for being a kook is shirking your duty to counter them in debate.
 
Doc2005,

I completely agree with you that our government is repressing many of our rights. However, that does not mean that we should give up and say that our rights do not exist simply because our government is repressing more and more of them. It means that we should more vehemently work to retore our rights as soon as possible.
 
"Your right to vote is absolute."

No it isn't, people lose the right to vote all the time.

The right to say what you want when you want isn't absolute either.

John
 
JohnBT said:
"Your right to vote is absolute."

No it isn't, people lose the right to vote all the time.

The right to say what you want when you want isn't absolute either.

John

I respectfully disagree with you. People have their right repressed all the time. This can be Constitutional (as with having other rights repressed when you are convicted of a crime) or unConstitutional (as when the newly freed slaves in the South had to pay a "poll tax").

Also, note that when people are Constitutionally repressed from voting, it wasn't because they "threw their vote away".
 
Fletchette, another problem with an "unfettered rights" approach is that all too often, one person's right conflicts with that of another person. This is why I say that an "unfettered rights" approach, carried to the extreme, would lead to anarchy. One example: you decide that you're going to exercise your right of free speech by declaiming at the top of your lungs from your porch, at 3 a.m. I live next door, and am disturbed by the noise. Do I have any legal answer to your exercise of your right of free speech? If I insist on my right to peace and quiet at that time of the morning, on the grounds of "privacy" (not explicitly spelled out in the Constitution, despite what SCOTUS has to say about it), won't this infringe on your unfettered right of free speech?

censoring someone for being a kook is shirking your duty to counter them in debate.

Again, I must point out that the "kook" in question (Irving, and others of his ilk) has been debated publicy ad nauseam, and his position has been shown to be utterly false. This has not stopped him continuing to proclaim his views. If he'd do the honest thing and shut up after being proved wrong, that would be acceptable. He won't do that - so do you allow him to continue to lead others astray? Some would say "Yes, he has that right." The Austrian government has said "No - we passed a law to stop this sort of public nuisance." Given the history of the problem, I'm afraid I side with the Austrian government.

Another example: you said you have the right to vote but the responsibility not to throw your vote away. Your responsibility did not include taking away your right to vote if you did throw your vote away. Your right to vote is absolute.

:confused: :confused: :confused:

I don't see what point you're trying to make here. If you don't vote responsibly, it wouldn't be you who takes away your right to vote, but a restrictive government. I agree that this would be unacceptable. However, what about countries that legislate that since you have the right to vote, you must exercise that right, or face penalties (e.g. Brazil)? Is such an insistence that having been given a right, you must exercise it, a fair and reasonable regulation of the right in question?

Clinton said we should be responsible with our Second Amendment rights, but then erred when he said that being responsible meant that we should ban assault rifles.

Yes, he did say this - but the US courts agreed with him that prohibiting the sale and/or possession of a particular kind of weapon did not constitute an infringement of the right to keep and bear arms. The "right" does not spell out that any and all "arms" may be kept and/or borne - it merely says "arms". This can be legally defined in many ways. To take it to a ridiculous extreme, one could postulate that a government might ban the possession of all "arms" except a minimum-20-pound-weight .22LR rifle, to be not less than 40" in length, and might legislate that this weapon may only be "borne" (i.e. carried or transported) in a locked hard-sided gun case, between the hours of 8 a.m. and 5 p.m. Such a ban would still pass Constitutional muster, because one's right to keep and bear arms is still in existence, even if limited to only one "arm", carried in a certain way, at a specific time of day. This is what the gun-grabbers are using in their attempts to restrict classes and categories of weapons, and is why handgun bans, for example, have not been ruled unconstitutional - they don't prevent one from "keeping" and "bearing" long guns.
 
One example: you decide that you're going to exercise your right of free speech by declaiming at the top of your lungs from your porch, at 3 a.m. I live next door, and am disturbed by the noise. Do I have any legal answer to your exercise of your right of free speech?

As with the example of yelling "fire" in a crowded theater, a crime is only committed if there is criminal intent. So, if your neighbor intends to keep you from sleeping, he has committed a crime. If he is shouting at the top of his lungs because he needs help putting out a fire in his house, no crime has been committed, even if it does wake you up.

Again, I must point out that the "kook" in question (Irving, and others of his ilk) has been debated publicy ad nauseam, and his position has been shown to be utterly false. This has not stopped him continuing to proclaim his views.

So what? Let him continue to speak to whomever will listen, and you and people of your opinion have the duty to continue refuting him. Why do you insist that after some magic time limit people should go to jail for speaking their minds?

I don't see what point you're trying to make here. If you don't vote responsibly, it wouldn't be you who takes away your right to vote, but a restrictive government. I agree that this would be unacceptable.

Yes, so by direct analogy, if Mr. Irvine uses his freedom of speech to make a fool of himself, that is the consequence he should face. The government should not throw him in jail.

Yes, he did say this - but the US courts agreed with him...

The courts have made many, many mistakes in the past, as I have pointed out. Simply citing a court decision does not make it right. We have the duty (there is that word again!) to keep questioning, debating and insuring that our government (courts included) are acting Constitutionally. We never should simply say, "Ok, I'm tired of upholding my duty. Let's throw all wakos in jail so I don't have to pay attention anymore".
 
It might be timely now to note Thos. Jefferson's thoughts on harmful opinions:

"While the principles of our Constitution give just latitude to inquiry, every citizen faithful to it will deem embodied expressions of discontent and open outrages of law and patriotism as dishonorable as they are injurious." --Thomas Jefferson: Reply to Leesburg Citizens, 1809.

"[Montesquieu wrote in his Spirit of the Laws XII,c.12:] 'Words carried into action assume the nature of that action. Thus a man who goes into a public market-place to incite the subject to revolt incurs the guilt of high treason, because the words are joined to the action, and partake of its nature. It is not the words that are punished, but an action in which words are employed. They do not become criminal, but when they are annexed to a criminal action: everything is confounded if words are construed into a capital crime, instead of considering them only as a mark of that crime.'" --Thomas Jefferson: copied into his Commonplace Book.

And here's an interesting statement:
"The following [addition to the Bill of Rights] would have pleased me: The people shall not be deprived or abridged of their right to speak, to write, or otherwise to publish anything but false facts affecting injuriously the life, liberty or reputation of others, or affecting the peace of the [United States] with foreign nations." --Thomas Jefferson to James Madison, 1789. ME 7:450, Papers 15:367
 
Preacherman said:
The Austrian government has said "No - we passed a law to stop this sort of public nuisance." Given the history of the problem, I'm afraid I side with the Austrian government.

So, at what point does the government have the right to call a debate "closed"? Do you even begin to fathom the danger with ceding that right to the government?!?:banghead:

(Bear in mind that I am the only natural-born American citizen in my family; everyone else is Austrian and most of them actually experienced the Hitler regime. So I do understand why they would think this way. But that doesn't mean that their solution isn't worse than thr problem.)

Holocaust denial is the most egregious imaginable example, and therefore, it is a bad one. Furthermore, extreme cases make for bad laws.

But what about various other debates, e.g. when a "fetus" becomes a "child"? Perhaps we should jail anyone who opposes unfettered abortion until natural birth occurs, because the Supreme Court has decided that their position is "wrong".

WRT your comment about being able to squelch the speech of anyone who suggests that a race is superior of inferior... This could have ugly repercussions. Should we jail the many left-leaning academics who have found, through science and statistical analysis, that, on average, different ethnic groups actually are better at certain things (an academic subject, or a sport)? Would that be a good thing, either for the freedom of individuals or for the advancement of science that seeks to find out why these discrepancies occur on average in large populations?
 
Again, what this argument boils down to is the difference between those who favor rights that are absolute, unfettered and unregulated, and those who believe that regulation is not a bad thing, provided that it's not so severe as to infringe upon the right in question.
No, that may be some people's argument, but it is not necessary to believe that rights are absolute to believe that the actions of the Austrian government represent a repression of free speech. Whatever you think of the opinions of the Holocaust denyers, if they are presented in the forum of public debate, with no provable coercion, slander or lies, it should be protected in any country that claims to protect human rights. Reasonable restrictions on rights is not the question, the question is just how much power you're willing to give the government in determining where the line is crossed.

Example: What if I do research and decide that 6,000,000 Jews weren't killed in the Holocaust, it was actually 5,999,999? Am I guilty of being a Holocaust denyer? What about if I say 5M? What if I say the 6M weren't all Jews, but included Gypsies, Communists, homosexuals, liberals, etc? What if I say they were all Martians and the Nazis saved us from an alien invasion?

Which all begs the question of why there should be a special law about this one event in history as opposed to the endless account of man's inhumanity to man. It wasn't exclusively an Austrian event, in fact most happened elsewhere, so they don't have anything special to protect. I demand Austria protect the true (my) story of the barbarous slaughter of my Italian Protestant ancestors! Why, there are anti-Hugenot bigots all over Europe denying the true scale of the carnage! (OK, I just made that up, but you get the drift...)

I'm just glad I don't live over there.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top