Writing a speech on ballistic fingerprinting/ballistic fingerprint database

[TMM]

Hey guys. i'm doing the aforementioned topic for a speech in English - i think i have to stay to this one website for information (facts.com), but anything that you may have to say about the topic i'd appreciate, perhaps i could stick it in somewhere.

Thanks,
~tmm

 

[Firehand]

If you can, check smallestminority.blogspot.com, I believe he has a link on the sidebar to 'Why ballistic fingerprinting doesn't work'; post he did on the study for the CA DOJ showing what a waste of time & money it would be.

Also note that the Maryland State Police want to dump their 'ballistic fingerprint database' and put the money & personnel into their DNA database, because the DNA system has had some results, whereas the ballistics database has NEVER solved a crime.

I believe the NY state system has never actually solved a crime either, but they still keep putting money into it. I think largely as a way of making owning a firearm more difficult/expensive.

 

[mete]

I wasn't aware of the CA study. But certainly get a copy of the MD State Police study. Yes we have the ballistic fingerprinting here in NY and of course it's a waste of money.

 

[Crosshair]

Be sure to post a copy here when you get it done. It would be interesting to read.

 

[KC&97TA]

Ballistic fingerprinting is a joke. After 20k rounds is the rifleing still the same in my guns?

Price of a new barrel for a Ruger P944 $87

1911 5" $50 for cheap, sure there's military surplus out there, LOL

Beretta 92 barrel - $80 for cheap, $240 for factory, there has to be military surplus out there too, there's even a 92 barrel on ebay right now that's threaded for a comp or silencer

so now tell me exactly how ballistic fingerprinting works if you intent to use a registered firearm for illegal puposes and can buck the system by simply changeing the barrlel.

 

[10 Ring Tao]

Decent site with some visual aides you might be able to use...

http://www.the-eggman.com/writings/bfprint/index.html

 

[AJAX22]

its not a simple matter of changing the barrel, if casings are recovered, it would be necicary to change out the extractor, firing pin and resurface the bolt face, it also would be a good idea to polish the feed ramp.

what would be better would be to just swap the entire slide assembly.

revolvers are a bit harder to remove ballistic fingerprints from, as they require the cylinder and barrel to be replaced, and replacing the cylinder can require the mechanism to be re-timed.

they would be better investing there money in DNA, you can't rebarrel a cell.

 

[Crosshair]

revolvers are a bit harder to remove ballistic fingerprints from, as they require the cylinder and barrel to be replaced, and replacing the cylinder can require the mechanism to be re-timed.

Nope, give me a a file, some sandpaper, glue, and a wood dowel and I can change the "fingerprint" of any gun you give me. You don't have to swap parts, just change them enough so they no longer match.

 

[AJAX22]

the sandpaper meathod is true only if there are no signifigant burrs or markings inside the barrel, It also puts about 10k rounds worth of ammo wear on the gun leaving you with a signifigantly less acurate piece.

It is possible to do, but there still is a chance that it can be fingerprinted, and it could only be done once, as the process itself would make the barrel very unique.

using the replacement meathod, and taking an accetyline torch to the old parts is 100% reliable. where as the sandpaper meathod is more of a 90% reliable solution.

 

[pax]

TMM ~

Try these antique threads from TFL:

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=134438

and

http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=134767

I hope you can find something of use there.

pax

 

[Firehand]

Ajax, check out the CA study. They had test shots fired, one after the other from the same guns, that the system could not positively match up. And they found that doing one thing- changing brands of ammo- made the chances of getting a match even worse. I'm speaking of marks left on the cartridge cases.

Polish a bore and it affects the marks; polish the breech face or recoil shield, you change the marks on the case, and so on. It all works with revolvers as well as autos. And while it may take thousands of rounds to affect the accuracy potential of a barrel, it doesn't take that many to change the markings it leaves on a bullet. I recall some tests done years ago where they found that in some cases firing as few as one or two steel-jacketed bullets changed the rifling marks enough to prevent a definate match.

 

[10 Ring Tao]

Probably the best analogy I've seen for this particular debate, from that TFL link...

Establishing a ballistic fingerprint database makes about as much sense as creating an automotive footprint agency to record the tire tread of every new car sold in this country.

 

[jason10mm]

Don't forget that a large amount of these databases are matched/compared by HAND. The movies always show a whiz-bang computer program running possibilities until there is a match but in reality most of these systems require a person to manually run through the database. This is why it is a lot easier to match a known gun with a specific case/bullet than any case/bullet sold in the state since 2003 (for example).

If you get sneaky with a custom barrel with a twist and land/groove pattern different from your model gun, you can really throw off investigators. They'll be looking for a bullet they think came from a Glock while you did the shooting with a 1911. Probably a bit above the level of most criminals, except perhaps by accident. A hitman (or mystery writer) could have fun with it though.

 

[TMM]

Thanks for the help so far. i might start writing the outline today (since it's a speech it dosn't need to be a full paper) after looking through all the info.

As an aside, a friend of mine in my class is doing a speech on gun control(or how there shouldn't be, that is)

~tmm

 

[Carl N. Brown]

Ballistic samples taken at the factory are more comparable
to balleistic dental records than to DNA or fingerprints.

Unlike DNA or fingerprints, the marks left on bullets and casings
by a gun change as the gun ages, just as dental characteristics
change in people as they age.

Also, ballistics evidence works by tying bullets and casings
found at a crime scene (or crime scenes) to a gun found in the
hands of a suspect.

 

[TMM]

Finished the speech outline/notes.

It was supposed to be 3-5 minutes. i timed it, came to 11.

Thanks for the help. the resulting product is more of just an outline, but if you want to see it, holler.

~tmm

 

[taliv]

revolvers are a bit harder to remove ballistic fingerprints from, as they require the cylinder and barrel to be replaced, and replacing the cylinder can require the mechanism to be re-timed.

one doesn't typically leave brass at the scene when using a revolver

 

[10 Ring Tao]

Post both yours and your friend's. Simply attach them as txt files.

 

[Henry Bowman]

Also, ballistics evidence works by tying bullets and casings
found at a crime scene (or crime scenes) to a gun found in the
hands of a suspect.

Sure, in the real world. In fantasyland, the police just go look it up in the database (in their patrol car laptop) and go pick up the perp who confesses with a little pressure from the CSI tech or the Law&Order detective.