Wrong Lubricant, Jammed Weapons, Dead Soldiers

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There's been so much propoganda shoveled regarding the incident, how will we ever know what happened. It's also possible that some green soldiers panicked and left the safety on or didn't load the gun properly. Blaming the whole thing on guns jamming sounds like a story they would come up with after the fact. Sounded more like to me that the vehicle overturned (ever been in one that did?) By the time the soldiers who were not injured got up and re-oriented they were already swarmed by iraqi's. The weapons in question may never have even been picked up and aimed. At this point, I don't believe anything on this incident.
 
Ditto on tetra grease.

Actually, I think with the way that sand gets into the "innards" that a dry lube would the best. Years ago a company - Hornady i think (I'm too lazy to go to the garage and look)- came out with a dry lube. I still have part of a spray can left that I use for door locks and other moving mechanisms that are weather exposed. It may be just the thing for that type of hostile enviroment.

On my duty gun I use Hoppes #7 to clean, a very light coating of FP10 or Tetra Lube on bare metal (wiped off) and a light coating of Tetra grease on the slide rails. That's it.

On my off duty gun I'm experimenting with a new product called "Gun Guard". It's a "CLP" that drys completely leaving a dry lube coat on the gun. Early results look extremly good. they have a website.

Combine improper lube with a gun that blows burn powder into the receiver (M-16)- what a combo! Sort of like 1969 when I was first exposed to the M-16. (I really wanted my old M14 back!)
 
I don't always see eye to eye with Colonel Hackworth...but he called this one right

Our soldiers need to be riflemen first...including their leaders
 
The army manuals say to leave a thing coating of CLP on the weapon.

But they don't say what a thing coating is.

It is, in fact, what's left after you try to wipe the gun dry.

I use Militec, and I like it, and I'm not going to say it isn't better in those conditions than CLP, but I am prepared to say that there are aspects of weapons maintenance that aren't properly reinforced in the Army (or weren't, back when I was a unit armorer, and nothing I've read here suggests that anything has changed).

The indicator is the M2HB. The Ma Deuce simply does not jam because of improper lube. It's an amazingly forgiving weapon. It's recoil operated - it doesn't have gas tubes to plug up, and it's got massive chunks of metal moving around that take more than a bit of grit to stop.

Remember - this is a Browning design. At the acceptance trials for the M1917 (the water-cooled .30 caliber little brother to the M2HB), John Moses linked up 40,000 rounds, and fired them all off without a single failure).

Most of the failures-to-fire I've seen in M2's were because the headspace and timing were set incorrectly.
 
Militech is no better then Sarah Brady!! They are trying to profit from the blood of the soldiers in the ill fated 507th Maintence Company. This is no different then the Bardy Bunch getting a lot of free press release time after a high profile shooting incident.

No lube in existance would have prevented what happened to the 507th. Militech will never see a penny of my money, no matter how good their product is.

Jeff
 
I use Militec, and I like it, and I'm not going to say it isn't better in those conditions than CLP
Click to expand...

Actually, according to the Crane Dust Environment Test (hosted by Militec on their website), Militec is actually worse than CLP in this environment.

In a dust chamber, using silica flour to simulate an eight hour duststorm, CLP finished first out of about 25 tested lubricants (one failure in five tests - the second shot failed to feed during the eight hour test).

A totally bone dry M16 had six failures in five tests.

The Militec-lubed M16 had eight failures in five tests.

Note also that even Militec admits in its correspondence with the Army that Militec offers little or no protective benefit and doesn't clean anything either.
 
Blaming the whole thing on guns jamming sounds like a story they would come up with after the fact
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Did their compassses/GPS unit have the wrong lube also?


Edited by Bill

I had no right to criticize their navigation. Even a Special Forces unit fumbled the GPS in Afghanistan and called a strike on their own position. Greater miscommunications have been made in war: USS Indianapolis comes immediately to my mind.
 
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I have been using CLP for about 20 years now with no problems of any kind.
The cleaning/lubrication/protective properties are what make it most appealing and useful to me.
Some years back I performed my own little corrosion preventative test. I took several (non-galvanized) nails and coated each with a different gun oil/"protectant". I placed each of the nails in a small bottle of salt water - enough to partially submerge each one. Only the CLP nail remained corrosion free - after more than a YEAR in the salt water.
For the most effective bore cleaning, I have found Shooter's Choice to be the most effective.
I use Super Lube (and another specialty "grease" lubricant specifically designed for stainless steel) very sparing on the slide rails of my auto pistols.

ANY liquid lube will attract dust and grit - especially if used to excess. And I echo what has been said above - given their marketing tactics, Militec will never see one red cent from me.
 
RE: M1 Garand in Korea.

I know a gentleman who served as a medic with the 2nd Infantry division in Korea. He fought at Pork Chop hill, Heartbreak Ridge, and (I think) Hamburger Hill (was that even Korea? He doesn't mention specific battles to often so I may be off, I'm no historian). His praise of the M1 Garand is glowing. When I asked him specifics on how the weapon performed under wartime conditions and what sort of maintenance he did, he replied that he never cleaned his M1. After a battle he would remove the bolt and gas cylinder and rub them in the dirt to get the fowling off. The dirt would be wiped of on a sleeve or what ever was handy. If his rifle was submerged for a prolonged period, like during the monsoon season when the fighting holes and bunkers were all flooded and you had to sleep sitting up using your rifle to prop your head out of the water he would clean the surface rust off with oil and the weapon functioned fine. One thing he mentioned was that whenever a big push was about to begin the unit would receive new rifles as replacements. He would go through the new rifles to find parts for his. The purpose was to get the tightest fitting parts possible to improve accuracy. Through out all of this his M1 Garand provided yeoman service.

I doubt even an AK-47 could put up with that level of abuse.

RE cleaning:

I just spray my guns down with brake cleaner (scrub stubborn grime with a toothbrush) after shooting, run a bore snake through the barrel, and wipe down all the metal parts using a paper towel soaked in rem-oil. They all seem to work fine. Am I doing all right?

RE the M-16 in Iraq:

I am planning on joining the army once I graduate in December. We are at war and I have no illusions. I will most likely wind up in Iraq or some other desert with an issued M-16 series rifle. I have absolutely no experience with this type other then fondling at a gunshop. Do you have any tip on how to keep one running under the conditions mentioned in this thread? I was thinking of trying to keep mine loaded with a condom over the muzzle held in place by a rubber band, and a bead of axle grease sealing the dust cover and magazine well. My thinking is that the axle grease would seal dust out of the gun but not hinder the action of the weapon while firing as the cover could open easily and the magazine could be easily removed. Any blowing sand would be trapped on the outside of the weapon not inside. How does this sound? I have absolutely no idea if this will work or not. I have never used a M-16 or been in that kind of environment, but it looks like I will get a chance to do both in the near future so any advice would be welcome.

(PS OEF-Vet already mentioned throwing myself on the mercy of my NCOs for wisdom and experience)
 
he replied that he never cleaned his M1. After a battle he would remove the bolt and gas cylinder and rub them in the dirt to get the fowling off. The dirt would be wiped of on a sleeve or what ever was handy.
Click to expand...

What an amazing story. Considering that he was most likely using corrosive ammo in Korea (sometime between 1950 and 1953), it is that much more amazing that his rifle survived, nay thrived on, such neglect.
 
Close the dust cover. Keep a magazine seated. Use one of the shoot-away muzzle caps. There are also assorted field-expedient and issue weapon bags/covers into which the weapon can be sealed if you really want to do so.
 
after approx. 40 years of shooting I find fp-10 works on everything I own,
of course i haventy tried it in desert conditions.
 
Is it the lubricant or is it the maintenance of the arms in question?

Contrary to what some believe, the M16/AR15 is an excellent weapon and is not inherently unreliable at all. Like any machine, one must do preventative maintenance. If you don't do it, or don't do it correctly, then you're going to get a failure.

Contrary to what many civilians believe, the military does not make you a weapons expert. Just because you are in the military and carry a gun doesn't mean that you konw the first thing about how to use it or how to maintain it. That's unfortunate but true.

Not meaning to detract from anyone who is a "hero" or "heroine" of any sort, but how much practice and training do you think that the troops of a transportation maintenance company goes through?
 
Dunno what your NCO's say or what their level of knowledge or experience might be, but every man that I know with much experience AND knowledge (i.e. guys with the proper training who are or have been operators in some capacity in LE or military circles) has no problem with the M4/M16 platform. I know many who are actually transitioning from the MP5 to M4's even though they've been die-hard H&K fans (and, in a couple of cases, employed by H&K) for many years.

Like I said...what is the level of training and experience in terms of use and maintenance? I have a very good friend who is a master-class shooter in sporting circles and who is part of a SWAT team who has no problem with the USE of weapons at all but who will not maintain stuff properly. He would probably be a grandmaster level shooter if he kept his gear clean enough to avoid malfunctions. Similarly, his duty gear has been in questionable condition at times and I have cringed to see it. I have little doubt that, if the whole team didn't spend time after practice to sit down and clean their gear and check it over that he would never maintain it. I would imagine that most of the people who have problems with the M16 platform are in a similar situation.
 
Golgo-13:

I don't think our M1 ammo in Korea was corrosive. I carried one for a couple of months and had little trouble keeping it clean (when I thought of it). And I was in a lot of combat areas during that period. The worst thing was to keep it dry during the summer monsoon season. We used condoms over the muzzles to keep the bores dry.

When I got out of the Army in 1953 I "acquired" a large amount of LC 53 .30-06 ammo for my civilian rifle (I knew some troops who conducted live-fire exercises at Fort Benning). None of it was corrosive.
 
To this day, I have not heard a single report from a modern combat troop about how terrible the M16 is. Not even one. Its ALWAYS someone who isn't likely to be taking care of their weapon anyway, and everyone I know who joined the military in the last 10 years agrees. The AR is voluntarily carried by the best combat troops in the world, bar none, and has been for decades. Notice the only complaint you ever hear from the 3RD ID is that the 14.5" barrel doesn't generate enough velocity. Which is true.

To me, trying to claim that EVERY SINGLE WEAPON in the entire convoy jammed, all at once, sounds absolutely absurd, no matter how poorly maintained they were. And from all reports, these weren't the type of troops that would be likely to do proper maintenance on their weapons anyhow.

Like someone stated earlier, there have been so many conflicting reports about the incident that I don't think we or anyone else will ever really know what happened. From my own armchair perspective though, it sounds like inadequate combat training, and inadequate maintenance, in the wrong place at the wrong time, all came together.
 
I expect that fine sand and a lot of it would cause problems with any
lubricant on any weapon. The way the bolt rotates and locks makes the M-16 family subject to jamming on just about anything that collects there.
 
The M-16A2, and M4 family had proven itself time and time again. Requires no defense to those stuck in the past.

CLP also has proven itself in a variety of environments. The key to any lubricant is the proper amount. In talcum sand a little goes a long way.

I wouldn't and don't trust my life to Militec-1. Reading past threads here, The Firing Line, and web research cause me to conclude it's a lotta hype and could possibly cause damage in the long run.

Larry
 
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It's a point of fact that support troops such as those in a maintenance company spend so much time taking care of other folks equipment, they don't take the time to care for their own.

At all ranks, those hard working soldiers sacrifice sleeping, eating and their own gear to ensure the tows, tanks, radios, and combat systems keep functioning, get repaired and get back into the fight.

The 507th Maintenance sacrificed to the extreme.

Larry
First Sergeant, USA (ret.)
Air Assault!
 
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