WTK: info on S&W 1917 revolver

[TooTech]

(Posted initially on the "Revolvers" forum, but thought maybe I should have placed it here)

I recently acquired a S&W revolver, chambered for .45 ACP in moon clips. Not a triple-lock, I'm guessing a second-model hand ejector.

On the butt and cylinder are the numbers 83XXX. The barrel is numbered 85XXX. The XXX portions match, only the "thousands" digit is different! The finish wear on the frame and barrel are very similar. I'm betting someone was having a tough day at the office and that the barrel is original - that little "3" and that little "5" are very similar in appearance.

There are numbers on the crane and the frame recess the crane fits into, these numbers match each other, although they are different than the number on the butt, etc.

The barrel has the lettering "S&W DA 45" on the side, and two lines on the top of the barrel: "Smith & Wesson Springfield Mass USA", "Patented Dec 17 1901 Feb 5 1905 Sep 14 1909". Along with the serial number the butt is lettered "US Army model 1917".

There are no markings to indicate that this is a former military gun. The finish is bright blue and in about 80-85% condition, the pattern of the wear indicates holster carry. Barrel length is 5.5 inches, sights are fixed. Grips are wooden with checkering and silver S&W medallions. There is a number inside on only one of the grips, this number does not match any other numbers.

There is a hole in the butt for a lanyard loop, that is missing. The lanyard loop retaining pin is still in the frame.

Can anyone tell me the approximate age of the revolver, and any other pertinent facts?

 

[dfariswheel]

You have what sounds like a commercial version of the S&W Model 1917 revolver.

During WWI, General Pershing wanted every combat soldier possible to have a pistol, but the supply of Model 1911 autos was too small to meet the need.

So, the government contracted with Colt and S&W to produce versions of their large frame revolvers chambered in .45 ACP and using half-moon clips.

The Colt gun was their New Service model, and the S&W version was on their large "N" frame.

These guns were produced in 1917 to 1919.

S&W also produced these as a commercial gun from 1919 to 1941.
The military model had a total production of 175,000.

The commercial model had a high gloss blue finish with checkered walnut grips fitted with silver S&W medallions.

The true serial number is stamped on the butt. The other numbers are factory assembly numbers, used to keep components together during manufacture.

 

[Old Fuff]

If the numbers that are being posted are correct this shouldn't be a commercial revolver. The first model S&W model 1917's were made for the Army, starting in September, 1917. The first contract for 100,000 revolvers was completed in August, 1918 but another contract for an additional 172,000 guns was allready in place. However this contract was suspended in December, 1918 - but S&W was allowed to continue production until and additional 63,634 guns were delivered. This made a total of 163,634 military model 1917's. However for some reason the highest serial number was 169,959.

Smith & Wesson continued to make 1917 revolvers after 1919 for the U.S. commercial market, and to fill orders from foreign governments, primarily Brazil. However these were serial numbered in the original series, continuing on from 169,959.

The revolver in question is numbered 85,xxx and if this is the correct and complete serial number it should have been made for the Army during the period of the first 100,000 piece contract. It apparently does have post-war commercial stocks, but as TooTech noted, while the grips are numbered that number does not match any others on the gun. I therefore would conclude that they are replacements that were originally put on another gun.

The bottom of the barrel should be stamped: UNITED STATES PROPERTY. If it is not then I would suspect that it might be a commercial model, but the posted serial number is incomplete.

Small details can make all the difference.

 

[gamachinist]

Maybe both Old Fuff and dfariswheel are correct?
Could it be a US 1917 with a commercial barrel?
The serial number doesn't match on the barrel,and I don't have my 1917's handy to check,but I don't remember either the Colt or S&W having a serial number on the barrel,just the US Property markings.

 

[Old Fuff]

The serial number on model 1917 revolvers was stamped:

On the frame's butt and inside the yoke cut under the breech end of the barrel.

On the cylinder's rear face.

On the bottom of the barrel above the extractor rod.

On the yoke.

On the back of the extractor star.

This was to insure that the pre-fitted parts would be assembled into the correct revolver after they were blued, and that if revolvers were dissassembled in batches for cleaning or servicing the right parts would get back into the right guns - although it didn't always work this way.

Sometimes yokes and frames were given different but identical numbers because these two parts were fitted together before the serial number was stamped on the frame's butt. The cylinder and extractor were numbered later when they were fitted to the frame.

 

[TooTech]

OK, got my reading glasses out. Double-checked the serial numbers, the butt and cylinder are stamped 83111. The barrel is marked 85111 underneath just above the position of the the extractor rod when the cylinder is closed. Yes, I'm seeing this right, the butt and cylinder number is exactly two thousand lower from the number on the barrel. In the same area as the barrel serial number, but a fraction of an inch toward the muzzle there is also a small stamp there that looks like a "B" inside a triangle, and immediately under the triangle is a "V". The "B" and its surrounding triangle are kind of nestled into the open top of the "V".

The back of the extractor star is marked 83111, so it matches the butt and clylinder.

The barrel is NOT marked "US Property" and shows no signs that the words may have been buffed out.

Revelation! On close inspection (with glasses on) there IS a small flaming bomb on the left side of the gun just behind the top strap that I previously failed to notice. Also failed to previously mention that the right side of the barrel in marked "Smith & Wesson" in nice big letters.

Cylinder crane is stamped 49123, inside the yoke cut the frame is also stamped 49123 accompanied by another small stamp that looks like a small pitcher or a jester's hat, and the characters "s2". The rear of the cylinder has the same small figure and the characters "S4". The frame just behind the trigger guard has the same small figure and the characters "S1".

the inside of the right grip is marked 61456, left grip unmarked.

Whew!

NOW what should I think?

(And thanks for all the help, by the way!)

 

[Old Fuff]

Well it would seem to be a USGI revolver. I think the barrel should have been marked the same as the frame and cylinder, but somebody was in a hurry and grabbed the wrong stamp - 5 instead of 3. Either that, or somebody replaced the original barrel with an unmarked commercial one many years ago, and they were the one who stamped the numbers on the barrel and made a mistake.

Why the barrel isn't stamped "UNITED STATES PROPERTY" I don't know. Maybe it was rebarreled at the factory at a later date, and they stamped the min-numbered serial number on it. Or possibly the markings was missed in the first place, but I doubt it would have gotten past both S&W and government inspectors.

If you want to find out for sure, and are willing to invest $30.00, send a snapshot of the gun, and a check in that amount made out to Smith & Wesson, to Roy Jinks, S&W's official historian. For this reasonable fee he will go back and research the factory's records until he finds your gun. Also send the same detailed information contained in your last post.

 

[SDC]

Old Fuff, on a revolver that old, you'll probably also find the serial number stamped on the inside of the sideplate, since it's also a piece that was hand-fitted to the frame. On a set of original grips, you'll also find the serial number pencilled on the inside of the grips. (These are the things that come up doing serial number restorations )

 

[Old Fuff]

You're right in that the inside of the sideplate is numbered, either with the serial number or an assembly one. This isn't usually mentioned because most people who are checking things out don't pop the sideplate - at least at first. The other numbers are easy to observe without disassembling anything.

Commercial S&W revolvers during this period had the serial number penciled inside one grip, but because of wartime rush the model 1917 stocks were simply marked "U.S." if they were marked at all. The trick here is to look for a perfect fit.

Incidentally I am currently working on an early 1918 Smith & Wesson .38, 1905 Hand Ejector/Military & Police. Clearly it is a commercial revolver, but the stocks while numbered to another gun, fit perfectly. I have to wonder if during wartime production these things got mixed up sometimes.

 

[TooTech]

Thanks to all who responded! Very helpful.

I do believe I'll send a check and picture to Roy Jinks and get the gun's history, or at least as much of it as is in the records.

Before I do I'm going to run the gun down to Ahlman's in Morristown, Minnesota and have them take some of the play out of the cylinder, it's a bit loose and the flash gap takes a .006" feeler gauge without much trouble.

 

[Old Fuff]

Be careful about the way they do that. If they try to stretch the yoke (crane) and it cracks you are in big trouble! .006" is well within specification for the 1917 - it was intended to be used in trench warfare.

Also include a full description (as you have done on this thread) with your photograph when you send your request to: Smith & Wesson; Attn: Roy Jinks.

 

[Jim K]

Those "S" marks are government inspection marks. FWIW, when the government contract ended, S&W had various parts left over (as did many other arms makers*) so they used them up in civilian and some foreign contract production, even though they had already been inspected by the government and had the inspection mark. The barrels either had never been marked with the USP stamp, or the factory removed it, something nearly impossible to detect.

*Remington had enough Model 1917 parts left over to make sporting rifles for the next 20+ years; all the Model 30 and Model 720 rifles used surplus Model 1917 actions and (if .30) barrels.

Jim

 

[TooTech]

Old Fuff:

What's the right way to reduce cylinder play? I was assuming they'd add a yoke bearing like the ones Power Custom sells.

 

[hightech]

Reworked 1917

Sounds like this is a S&W 1917 government pistol with a new barrel. Possibly replaced because of excessive pitting from corrosive primers of its day. The grips have been replaced and the lanyard ring removed maybe to make them fit. All of the original grips, on government models I have seen, were smooth not checked.

 

[Old Fuff]

TooTech:

The Powers bearing is the right way to go, but some gunsmiths try to stretch the yoke's barrel, and on an old 1917 this might cause it to crack. Therefore be sure your gunsmith is one that uses the bearing method.

 

[Johnny Guest]

TooTech - - Your revolver, your decision, surely. But I respecfully suggest that you leave it as is. You write - -

. . . the flash gap takes a .006" feeler gauge without much trouble.

This indicates to me that the .006 gauge is a snug fit. As Old Fuff so clearly notes - -

.006" is well within specification for the 1917 - it was intended to be used in trench warfare.

This being proper for the particular revolver, why mess with it? It is not as if you need the paltry few feet per second that may be lost in what is not exactly a yawning chasm. And this is not, after all, an arm to be used for high precision bullseye competition.

Those individuals who 'smith firearms for a living must charge a decent amount for their time. This operation is more involved than, say, installing customer-furnished night sights on a Glock. For listening to your story, ordering the proper bearing, and fitting it, I dare say a competent workman would charge at least $50 plus parts.

Too, there are those who will try shortcuts in an attempt to turn a quick fee. Balancing the miniscule possible gain against the expense and possible complications, I personally would hesitate to submit my neat old revolver for such dubious improvement.

Submitted for your consideration . . . .
Johnny