You Won't Believe Who Is Ruining Gun Collecting

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45Broomhandle

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Some folks who make money off our gun collecting hobby are helping to destroy it. Here's a good illustration that just happened to me yesterday.

Due to advanced age, poor health and general circumstnces I'm unable to travel to gun shows, so I rely heavily on the online gun auctions to assist me in my collecting endeavors. I understand and expect to pay for this convenient way of shopping. However....

Last week I was notified by an online bidding service of two gun auctions starting at 10am yesterday. I registered with both companies, one in OH and one in GA. I went to the catalog site and placed some bids on a few items. Then yesterday I attended both live auctions online.

I won a single gun at each auction. I was shocked when I received one auction company's invoice. My winning bid was $100 a great buy for this particular gun.

Here's what I was invoiced: $100.00 for gun; $32.50 Gun Handling charges; $15.00 Internet Buyer's Premium, and $8.05 State Sales Tax. This was a GA auction and I live in FL. (They even charged the 7% tax on the added charges above.)

TOTAL DUE $155.55.

My cost has now zoomed to more than 50%. Next, because it is a repeater version of a single shot which is on the C&R list, this one is not, so I had to use an FFL dealer to transfer it to. My cost for him signing a piece of paper is $30. The totatl cost of my gun is now at $185.55. Almost DOUBLE what I thought I was purchasing it for.

The FFL dealer relies on our business for his livlihood. The auction firms also earn their keep through folks like us. Yet these businessmen are willing to gouge us to make an even larger profit for themselves. I beleive this kind of treatment of their customers will eventually mean the end of our hobby.

Am I being unfair? Do you think their charges are realistic?

I've put in my two-cents worth. What's your opinion??? ---45Broomhandle

nranopetagevarmsupporttroopsem.jpg


Yes, there is a place for all of God's creatures: right next to the potatoes and gravy.
 
If people are gouged, they won't use those services anymore. That's the best thing about the web, you're not limited by geographic choice. People will choose whomever is offering the best deal, and the gougers will either change their ways or vanish.

The marketplace will solve.
 
Your point becomes exaggerated because the gun cost $100.....had it been $1000 or $10,000 for the gun, fees wouldn't be out of proportion. The lesson to be learned here is not to buy cheap guns over the internet.
 
Sounds like serious sour grapes to me. You live in Daytona Beach, and bought a gun from an auction in Georgia. How much did you save in time and gas to buy online vs. driving? The purchase would have still required a FFL transfer according to your post. It looks to me like the only extra charges that you incurred was the $15.00 internet buyers premium.
 
The ffl dealer has to pay for his storefront, his advertising, his electric bill, as well as meet BATF requirements etc... none of that comes free, the fewer people who buy guns outa his shop then the more he must charge for services like transfers etc... in order to pay these bills, ya stated that ya are turning more and more to internet shopping well that means in order for him to still be around to recieve these arms and transfer them for you he is going to have to charge you more..... if he goes under because you are doing more internet shopping then who will tranfer your internet finds for you?


I hold a class 01, but am not a dealer, we maintain the 01 because I do buy ALOT of guns as well as doing custom gun work and restoration etc... ya wouldn't believe the red tape and BS thats involved in order to maintain that 01 BUT I have on average 20-23 guns comming into my collection per month and its just simpler to have the 01 etc... Latelly I've considered dropping it just cause I have several friends with 01s who would transfer the guns for me but.... I really hate to inconvience them....

The more you and others in your area turn to buying guns/ ammo online then the more your local dealers will have to charge in order to stay in business for both transfer fees as well as ammo and firearms etc... if your local ffl goes out of business then you will no longer be able to recieve those bargain guns...... is he really gouging you or is he trying to stay alive so he'll still be available for your next transfer?
 
I would say refuse to pay unless your complaints get resolved. And then cancel your membership and buy your guns on forums like these.
 
As much as I hate to say it, I think the only out of place fees there are the sales tax and the "$15.00 Internet Buyer's Premium", which seems unjustified and unreasonable to me (after all they charge the seller to sell the item already...).

The taxes they should not charge you, and I wouldn't use that auction service again unless I was willing to pay a $15 surcharge. That does seem unreasonable to me.

$35 for shipping it and $30 for the FFL transfer are not outlandish charges at all, they're just part and parcel.

That's why I don't compare store prices to internet prices without taking into consideration all the other fees. If the gun cost a substantial amount I can normally recover the fees at least partially not having to pay sales tax...
 
no, don't pay these charges, tell the person you will only pay for the item bid on, and the shipping charges., which should be no more than twenty dollars. they are allready an ffl, there is no such thing as handling charges, and there is no tax state to state, much less the internet itself. The whole purpose of the internet is to screw state and fed gov's to keep their greasy hands off of extra money that they call taxes.
 
Wow, is sounds like Ticketron where they slap on all types of additional costs to get what you buy.

That is the way it is, though. If you want to go down that avenue, you'll have to pay the toll. Whether you or I think the charges are fair or not is irrelevant, that's what the service requires as per the people running the auction. Accept and move on. No point in getting stressed out over it. Find an less expensive avenue if you would like lower costs. (It's one of the reasons I don't do on-line auctions.)
 
They are not ruining gun collecting. I disagree with your premise. The internet auctions make it into a truly national market on pricing and are making firearm collecting more interesting and potentially profitable.

The only price or fee that you mentioned that would trouble me is the sales tax. They are not required to charge you sales tax unless they have an operation in your state (FL).

Many of the national auctions tell you up front that there will be a percentage fee tacked onto the final price of anything you buy as their fee. I have bought from a number in the past and sometimes the fee catches you off guard.

As was said, the fees exaggerate the impact on the final price of the firearm. I personally would not worry about it. Like sales tax, you just have to forget about it when you value pieces in your collection. It is part of the cost of doing business which should be passed onto the buyer.

Your $30 fee for transfer with the FFL dealer may be a tad high, but on the other hand, that is the ONLY money the dealer gets for the transaction. He accepts the final liability if there truly is any liability.

I do consulting work and people get upset with the price. They pay a million dollars for a piece of property and kick about a bill for maybe $2000. I do the environmental stuff and ultimately accept the liability for making a mistake.... all for a measly couple thousand bucks. Environmental issue mistakes are expensive.
 
I've been stung too, and learned to read the fine print in the auction's rules.

www.gunbrokers.com don't have any special charges, and sellers have to list their handling/shipping charges up front. Haven't had any problems with them.

www.armsbid.com do have a charge, but they tell you up front, and offer a fair estimate of what handling/shipping will be. Knowing what these costs will be makes it easy to factor them into the size of my bid(s).

Another option is to subscribe to publications such as Gun List and Shotgun News. Then place small (and inexpensive) classified advertisements in the "wanted to buy" section for the particular kinds of collectables you're looking for. Deal direct with the seller and forget the auctions.
 
Also , dudes, notice here, only one of tet companies is screwing him, not the other. Again, they are allready an ffl, so the gunseller doesn't pay another transfer fee, if this rifle sold for less than they like, that is the same chance that you take when you have to bid more than you like , to get something. Their money is to be made,ONLY, by the bid itself, and maybe a few bucks on shipping charges. If they lose money, TOO BAD FOR THEM! THIS IS THE RISK THEY TAKE ON KNOWINGLY, and part of the price of doing business in this country; it is called capitalism, also known as FREE interprise. Free interprise is this, two people come together, and without any undue pressure or force from outside forces, they agree on a goods and services change, in exchange for a type of payment. No one forced him to sell on an auction, know one forced him to sell guns, no one forced him to sell at a loss. It is the risk he took. And you bought the rifle at a price that you agreed with, no one forced you to put in that bid.
 
Were all of these fees in the listing?

If the fees were in the listing then you should have read it better before bidding.

If they were NOT, then you should refuse to pay and report the seller to the auction site.

(Since you have asked for public opinion: How about posting a link to the actual auction so we can see for ourselves?)

Cheers,
ChickenHawk
 
The fees really don't sound that bad. as far as $30 for the ffl...not that bad of a deal....just think of the costs of getting an ffl, paperwork, etc.
 
An online firearm auction isn't any different than a stand and bid auction.
You bid a winner for a gun then the auction house hits you with the buyers premium, state sales tax, processing fees, etc.

Try buying on e-bay, same thing.
You think you get a great deal on an item until the seller hits you with the bill with his shipping charges.
$30.00 winning bid with $15.00 shipping isn't a bargain either.
 
The level of effort that is presumably behind the gun handling charge is the same whether it is a $100 gun or a $10,000 gun; is it fair? Maybe not and your alternative is to not do business with them. Tax may be due if the terms are FOB origin (depends on the state statutes and regulations). Ask for their GA tax number, write the GA Department of Taxation and let them know they are collecting sales tax on out of state shipments; most states have unjust enrichment clauses in their tax code (if you collect the tax you remit it regarless if it was properly due). My guess is that the auction site is acting as your agent; thus possession on your behalf was in GA and you owe the tax (read the bidding agreement). The $15 internet premium sounds like a rip off (do they have premiums for phone bids?).
 
Just to put things in perspective.....Barrett-Jackson Auto Auctions recently sold Carrol Shelby's personal Cobra for $5,000,000......the buyer had to pay an additional $500,000 (buyers fee) for Barrett-Jackson's services. Makes $85 over the bid price seem like a bargain.
 
Wow! Answering ALL of you is difficult

For starters, I didn't mention names or websites because I didn't want to give them free publicity. My posting is just a heads-up to all other collectors to VERIFY with the auction house about these undisclosed fees and charges. The 15% internet buyer's fee was up fronnt. No problem. DO NOT RECALL any word on shipping and handling except that buyer was responsible.

The FFL dealer in this story has made thousands of dollars off me over the years. Once I obtained my C&R this cut into his chances for a sale to me. He only very occasionally has an old vintage gun come in that I might be interested in. Using the net and my C&R I can cover hundreds of dealers and auctions across the country without needing his services.

I've bought from numerous online auctions. Just last week got a GREAT old Stevens No. 10 and wrote the owner of Gunrunner Auction as to how pleased I was. He emailed me back saying that I had "made their day" for him and his employees.

I have a 338 POSITIVE rating with eBay. I've got 100% positive feedback as both buyer and seller on GunBroker and AuctionArms. I subscribe to BOTH Gun Digest (formerly Gun List) and Shotgun News. I've bought many guns from advertisers in both publications. And I've bought guns from Devine, Amoskeag, etc., etc.. Many moons ago I held an FFL, but today I ONLY collect and the C&R is perfect for my neeeds - USUALLY.

I've bought guns from advertisers in both publications mentioned above, from locations all over the country. The majority are great guys, very helpful and easy to do business with. I've disagreed only once with a seller about condition advertised in his offering. He was not aware the gun was missing parts until I pointed it out to hem, and immediately gave me an adequate refund.

Since fees and taxes are based on a PERCENTAGE of the selling price, how does this EXAGGERATE the price on cheaper guns? Your "logic" escapes me...

NO, I did NOT just fall off the turnip truck yesterday. (A few years ago, maybe, but not yesterday.) :) I've bought several great guns off posters like yourselves on various online gun forums. Last week a poster here on THR sold me a vintage pistol I've been looking for for years. We completed our deal through PMs and personal email addresses.

The online auctions I've used probably had phone bidding as well. I didn't check for that. With LIVE online you just click the BID button when you want to bid. EXTREMELY simple. Some also have Video and/or audio hooked in with maybe a second or two delay.

If I've not answered any questions, please let me know. It's difficult to try to scroll and search all these replies. This was intended only as a heads-up if you're considering bidding LIVE online. Best regards, ---45Broomhandle
 
Here's what I was invoiced: $100.00 for gun; $32.50 Gun Handling charges; $15.00 Internet Buyer's Premium, and $8.05 State Sales Tax. This was a GA auction and I live in FL. (They even charged the 7% tax on the added charges above.)
Click to expand...

The one thing to understand about some auctions is that the price they get goes straight to the seller and they add a premium to it as their profit. For several years I used to buy antiques at auctions and resell them online. All the auctions I attended charged their premium over the sale price. Since you didn't mention shipping, the handling charge sounds like it included packaging and shipping. While a bit high, it's still fair to charge for the service and to recoup shipping costs. I have no explanation on the taxes though. If the sale is out of state, they are not required to collect taxes, and in fact I believe it's illegal to do so and keep it as profit.

You're right though, it does make it hard to get a deal with all the added fees.
 
okay this is sooo bunk.

Lets take a careful look at it.

Guy A wants to sell his gun
Guy B wants to buy that gun
Guy C is the intermediary.

A sells the gun to B for $100. B gives C $100 to give to A. C gets nothing. Why would guy C keep on maintaining his auction site or whatever if he got nothing from it?

Guy C can either charge $1 on 10 transactions to make a bit of cash, or $10 on 1 transaction. You admit to infrequently using his services since you got your own C&R FFL and the ton of internet auctions available. Guess what, so has everyone else, so now full FFLs tend to charge more for the few transactions that do go through them. You are basically paying a premium to keep an option (non C&R) open to you and others. If he kept on charging the old amounts before everybody had internet access, he'd be out of business.

Second, in addition from a reasonable cut for working as an intermediary, it does take time to package up a gun and ship it out. Sure, lots of us do that for free, but we do the dishes and laundry for free too. However, when it is someone's business, they do have a right to be compensated for their actions, that's why maids don't work for free! That's why an autoshop will charge you more than just the cost of the oil and filter to chance your oil. (take a look at the 'shop fees' catagory, you are paying for the oil, filter, and labor in full, plus a small part of the total cost of the lift your car is on, the building it is in, the tools available, electric bill, magazine subscription in the waiting room, etc)

Further, regarding the online auction fee. This too is not unusaul, and as you mentioned, it was disclosed. What is giong on is you are paying a small percentage of the computer, tech support, and all the rest of the stuff that having an auction on-line entails. Think of the most simple auction, a man standing in front of a crowd accepting bids. Now bring in a table and a laptop and an internet connection and someone to sit there. That costs money. Sometimes, based on how the auction is set up, the owner of the goods (especially like at an estate sale) will pick up that cost. Other times, it is distributed over all who can bid (you may have to pay $2 to have the right to make a bid) sometimes it is a fee tacked on only if a person using the special services wins the bid.

to expect the intermediary to do all the work for free is rediculous
 
My only question here is "Were all the charges up front?" If they were, and the purchase went ahead, then I see nothing wrong.

As far as the charges being excessive, no matter the Internet forum, I am always careful to add up all charges to obtain a bottom line. If I'm willing to pay that, then it's worth it to me. How can I complain about it? If not, I don't buy. If enough other people don't buy, then this stuff will cease, simply due to lack of business. Res ipse loquitur.
 
thats why i try to steer away from online gun auctions. i find it ludacris they charged you GA state taxes on an internet purchase across state lines.(i dont even know if thats legal!)

just curious as to what auction site you purchased it off of?
 
$100.00 for gun. The price you agreed to pay.

$15.00 Internet Buyer's Premium. The charge was disclosed to you before you bid and you agreed to pay it.

You don't think it's fair to have been charged the remaining $40.50.

$32.50 Gun Handling charges. Vague, but if it includes shipping from Georgia to Florida and an FFL transfer fee it seems low to me. It's in line with UPS and FedEx charges for shipping firearms.

As for FFL transfer fees: the auction house is not the seller. It's the intermediary between seller and buyer. It's entitled to charge for its services. You also paid an FFL transfer fee of $30 when the gun was received in Florida. That's just $2.50 less than you paid the auction house, which suggests to me that the "gun handling charge" was a bargain.

$8.05 State Sales Tax. This was a GA auction and I live in FL. (They even charged the 7% tax on the added charges above.) Believe it or not, merchants are required to collect sales tax. I don't know if Georgia law imposes sales tax on shipping and services. Other states do.

So you paid $85.55 over the selling price to get the $100 gun in your hands legally, while compensating people for services they rendered to you. If you believe that it was foolish to do so, find the guy who told you to do it and chew him out.
 
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