TTv2
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What powder were you using for the 120 grain? I have some 125 grain gas checked bullets, but can't find any load data for it.
Your 327 experience Please
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Saleen322
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AA9 has consistently provided the best accuracy and good velocity with heavier bullets.
Comparing Federal's 100grn .327 FM offering to .38 +P offerings by Buffalo Bore and Underwood is not even close to an apples to apples comparison. A more even comparison would be Buffalo Bore's .327 FM cartridge in 130 gr HC Keith to their .38 +P in 158 grn HC Keith. When you compare both rounds in 3 inch SP101s the story is a little different. MV and energy favor the .327. TKO is 8 to 7 in favor of the .38+P, a lot closer than the 8 to 5 you posted when comparing BB to Federal ammo.
Small TKO difference, plus you get an extra round in a SP101 sized revolver when you go with the .327. I say .327 matches up favorably against .38 +P in small frame revolvers.
TTv2
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I see no advantages or disadvantages of 148 gr wadcutters vs 100 grain wadcutters other than the 6th shot and the .327 LCR being heavier than the .38 LCR, so felt recoil is even less with .32 caliber and those two facets to me are worth owning over a .38.
The BB 158+P load vs a 100 grain JSP isn't a fair comparison, what's more fair and apples to apples is the 130 grain .327 load BB also makes and that out the same 6 inch barrel is probably going to be 1400-1425, which is 566-586 ft/lbs, a bit higher than the .38 load. Personally, I'm never buying either of these loads because I don't see where they excel in real world situations that make it worth $10 more a box over standard factory ammunition. If I'm going into large, dangerous game territory, I'm leaving my .327, .38's, and .357's at home and I'm bringing my big bore handguns like 10mm and Ruger Only .45 Colts.
As for .357 and .327, I have no desire to shoot .357 out of a snub revolver for any reason. It's an experience few find pleasurable and unless you're using premium .357 ammo (which will cost the same as any .327 will) you're not going to be getting good velocities with it and thus bullet expansion may not occur, but you'll be getting a lot of blast and recoil.
Already said I don't like .327 in larger frame revolvers, so not covering that.
I'd like to know where you're getting your data for .357 being flatter and faster shooting than .327 out of a rifle. There's no way that a fatter, heavier bullet is going to be flatter than a lighter, thinner bullet because physics doesn't allow it.
For velocity, if you're just looking at raw data from Buffalo Bore's website and their claims of 2200 fps with certain loads from a rifle, I believe them, but I don't factor in premium ammo when it comes to differences between calibers because there comes a point that the price for premium isn't worth it. $30 for a box of 20 rounds to get 2200 fps with a JHP that's going to explode and lack penetration once it hits doesn't sound like a good deal to me, not when $25 for 50 rounds of .327 can do the same numbers.
Saleen's test is just one lot of ammo in his rifle and I'm inclined to believe that the .327 can go faster than 2000 fps with a 100 grain bullet.
And if we want to speculate what Buffalo Bore can do with a 100 grain .327 load in a rifle, buy some and send it to me with a chronograph and I'll get you the answer.
With .327, I can handload ammo to the velocities Saleen listed and do it for a very low price. Also, all a .357 JHP is going to do once it hits something at 1800 fps is explode and not penetrate, while .327 has a higher sectional density and will penetrate with a 120-130 grain projectile.
I am not sure what is so worrisome about the position that .327FM can not match what a larger cartridge can do at the top end, while showing a capability at the lower end for lesser recoil. Or that when .327FM matches a particular .38/.357 cartridge performance, it requires more pressure and/or muzzle blast & noise to do so. I smell dogma, while others smell heresy, I suspect.
======================
I noted that BB also produces commercially loaded hot .327FM. And I also noted that Federal is doing a disservice to .327FM shooters with their mere three commercial loads that do not cover the range of .327FM utility and/or capability. Especially since Federal developed the .327FM.
Sure, "compares favorably," I'll sign on to that. This is not a .22LR vs 9x19mm comparo. But the comparison consists of a trade-off in the SP101: .38spl that does more damage vs .327FM which allows for one more cartridge.
Bigger hole, larger crush cavity, deeper penetration, greater availability of commercially loaded cartridges. Add to that the .38spl tgt HBWC has much greater use in contemporary competitive shooting sports, leading to more $$$ & attention paid to getting it right. Federal Gold Match .38spl 148gr HBWC is some crazy consistent fodder.
Yep, I have noted many times that the .32 family of cartridges owns the niche of lowest-possible recoil from commercially loaded centerfire cartridges in current production guns. Maybe beat only by .25ACP or .32ACP semi-autos.
There's fair and then their's fair. Federal developed the .327FM. Those three loads are what they consider appropriate to make and sell for the .327FM. Using the loads sold by the same guys who developed it is fair. Doing otherwise is making a "more Catholic than the Pope" argument.
OTOH, I think Federal is short-changing .327FM shooters. BB and a fellow on this thread have developed heavy-for-caliber loads that boost .327FM performance without (I assume) compromising safety or .327FM specs. And the BB loads are nothing new. .38spl+P and .38/44 loads of similar performance have been produced by the big ammo makers.
I sway between going for the higher drama & velocity offerings that ensure reliable expansion (1000fps or more) and saying "Heck with it" and running 148gr tgt HBWC.
Ballistic coefficient of .32 & .38 projectiles:
gr, bc
Hornady .32 (.312)
60, 0.090
85, 0.145
100, 0.170
Hornady .38 (.357)
158, 0.199-0.206
Mass does make a difference, but not in the way you imply.
I pinged Saleen for details. Assuming his veracity (no reason not to), he has done more loading and shot more hand loaded hot .327FM cartridges over a chrony than 95/100 handloaders who own a chrony would do for a load.
BB did not test their .327FM in a carbine. But if you look at Saleen's data (4.2" bbl & 20" bbl) and compare the MV of them, you'll see an increase in MV of 400-500fps for bullets weighing from 100gr to 120gr. Now look at the BB data for their 130gr and 100gr offerings. From a 5.5" bbl BB gets 1391fps and 1466fps, respectively. Assume BB manages to get the best improvement: 500fps. Rounding UP, that gives us 1900fps for a 130gr and 2000fps for a 100gr. That's giving .327FM all the breaks: more bbl length, max fps increase.
That data is in the neighborhood of Saleens. IOW, it corroborated the work Saleen has done. I think BB and Saleen are getting at the tippy-top of .327FM performance whilst staying within specs.
Not all JHP are made the same. My carry load for years with a .357mag snubbie was a Winchester load topped with a 180gr Nosler Partition JHP. Not going to explode. Neither will hard cast lead.
If we're talking sectional density, and especially sectional density in bullets of greater mass than general, I think the following might help:
.32 caliber (.311-.312")
.38 caliber (.357")
Again, I am not sure what is so worrisome about the position that .327FM can not match what a larger cartridge can do at the top end, while showing a capability at the lower end for lesser recoil. Or that when .327FM matches a particular .38/.357 cartridge performance, it requires more pressure and/or muzzle blast & noise to do so. I smell dogma, while others smell heresy, I suspect.
And I will reiterate that I think Federal ought to provide a greater variety of .327FM loads for .327FM shooters. They developed it. They ought to provide at least one top-performing load compliant with the specs.
======================
I noted that BB also produces commercially loaded hot .327FM. And I also noted that Federal is doing a disservice to .327FM shooters with their mere three commercial loads that do not cover the range of .327FM utility and/or capability. Especially since Federal developed the .327FM.
Sure, "compares favorably," I'll sign on to that. This is not a .22LR vs 9x19mm comparo. But the comparison consists of a trade-off in the SP101: .38spl that does more damage vs .327FM which allows for one more cartridge.
Bigger hole, larger crush cavity, deeper penetration, greater availability of commercially loaded cartridges. Add to that the .38spl tgt HBWC has much greater use in contemporary competitive shooting sports, leading to more $$$ & attention paid to getting it right. Federal Gold Match .38spl 148gr HBWC is some crazy consistent fodder.
Yep, I have noted many times that the .32 family of cartridges owns the niche of lowest-possible recoil from commercially loaded centerfire cartridges in current production guns. Maybe beat only by .25ACP or .32ACP semi-autos.
There's fair and then their's fair. Federal developed the .327FM. Those three loads are what they consider appropriate to make and sell for the .327FM. Using the loads sold by the same guys who developed it is fair. Doing otherwise is making a "more Catholic than the Pope" argument.
OTOH, I think Federal is short-changing .327FM shooters. BB and a fellow on this thread have developed heavy-for-caliber loads that boost .327FM performance without (I assume) compromising safety or .327FM specs. And the BB loads are nothing new. .38spl+P and .38/44 loads of similar performance have been produced by the big ammo makers.
I sway between going for the higher drama & velocity offerings that ensure reliable expansion (1000fps or more) and saying "Heck with it" and running 148gr tgt HBWC.
Ballistic coefficient of .32 & .38 projectiles:
gr, bc
Hornady .32 (.312)
60, 0.090
85, 0.145
100, 0.170
Hornady .38 (.357)
158, 0.199-0.206
Mass does make a difference, but not in the way you imply.
I pinged Saleen for details. Assuming his veracity (no reason not to), he has done more loading and shot more hand loaded hot .327FM cartridges over a chrony than 95/100 handloaders who own a chrony would do for a load.
BB did not test their .327FM in a carbine. But if you look at Saleen's data (4.2" bbl & 20" bbl) and compare the MV of them, you'll see an increase in MV of 400-500fps for bullets weighing from 100gr to 120gr. Now look at the BB data for their 130gr and 100gr offerings. From a 5.5" bbl BB gets 1391fps and 1466fps, respectively. Assume BB manages to get the best improvement: 500fps. Rounding UP, that gives us 1900fps for a 130gr and 2000fps for a 100gr. That's giving .327FM all the breaks: more bbl length, max fps increase.
That data is in the neighborhood of Saleens. IOW, it corroborated the work Saleen has done. I think BB and Saleen are getting at the tippy-top of .327FM performance whilst staying within specs.
Not all JHP are made the same. My carry load for years with a .357mag snubbie was a Winchester load topped with a 180gr Nosler Partition JHP. Not going to explode. Neither will hard cast lead.
If we're talking sectional density, and especially sectional density in bullets of greater mass than general, I think the following might help:
.32 caliber (.311-.312")
- 60 grain, SD .088
- 71 grain, SD .105
- 85 grain, SD .125
- 100 grain, SD .147
- 130 grain, SD .189
.38 caliber (.357")
- 110 grain, SD .123
- 125 grain, SD .140
- 140 grain, SD .157
- 146 grain, SD .163
- 148 grain, SD .166
- 158 grain, SD .177
- 180 grain, SD .202
- 200 grain, SD .224
Again, I am not sure what is so worrisome about the position that .327FM can not match what a larger cartridge can do at the top end, while showing a capability at the lower end for lesser recoil. Or that when .327FM matches a particular .38/.357 cartridge performance, it requires more pressure and/or muzzle blast & noise to do so. I smell dogma, while others smell heresy, I suspect.
And I will reiterate that I think Federal ought to provide a greater variety of .327FM loads for .327FM shooters. They developed it. They ought to provide at least one top-performing load compliant with the specs.
You should go to a range and smell some gunpowder; as in try shooting .327 and 32 Mag before making pronouncements derived from algorithims and slide rules.
So why'd you ever buy it if you're only searching for answers to The Meaning Of Life and all that-?
For those of you that favor Underwood ammo as I do, I wish you would start or continue e-mailing them about wanting .327 FM ammo.
I have a few times and keep getting that they're looking into it. Maybe they are, maybe they're not, but there's the supply and demand factor to consider.
I have a few times and keep getting that they're looking into it. Maybe they are, maybe they're not, but there's the supply and demand factor to consider.
TTv2
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.32 S&W Long is equal in use for competitive shooting sports in Europe and the ammo manufacturers that make the 98-100 grain wadcutters are also putting a lot of attention, $$$, and time to "get it right." Unless you think Federal does a better job than Fiocchi or S&B do, but I don't understand why you're putting so much emphasis on ammo consistency when the distances it would be used for defense is 12 yards or less. As long as there is powder, a primer, and a bullet, they're all gonna go boom... or in this case pew pew.
As for the terminal effects, they're both so minuscule as to be irrelevant to me. I would rather use LRN in either .32 or .38 as they will tumble and cause more damage.
Yes, Federal does, indeed produce a superior product relative to Fiocchi & S&B. I have shot.many 38spl 148gr target wadcutters from many manufacturers, to include Fed, Fiocchi, and S&B. Federal GM is tops for consistency/accuracy. Fiocchi is some weak tea, with lesser realized velocities & accuracy, and shoots dirtier. S&B is in the middle. I've also shot Fiocchi .32Long tgt wadcutters, which resemble their bigger .38spl cousin. Not bad ammo, but not my first choice and if I have both on hand when shooting with kids or noobs, I let the kids and noobs burn up the Fiocchi or S&B, reserving the Fed GM for more important uses.
Both the work of the jell-o junkies and observation in the field (going back nigh on 100 years) on critters indicate that wadcutters inflict more damage than LRN and are more likely to penetrate along the same vector, holding other factors constant.
1. I own a Ruger SP101 in .327FM, thanks. I've shot everything in it from Fiocchi .32Long HBWC up to .327FM BB loads. I also own an array of .38spl & .357mag revolvers.
2. I have hands-on experience with the topic(s) under discussion. I also have the math & physics to explain it to the numerate.
3. Last, there are some good folk who have generated data recently and over the decades pertinent to the issues at hand.
Mayhap you should pick up some books and put them to their intended use? Basic math & physics texts. Works by Fackler, Keith, Sharpe, Marshall & Sanow, too. The software to complement the hardware, as it were.
The dogma is getting thick in here.
Not sure for what you're thanking me; it's not like I offered to give you one of mine.
You have only one .327 but an "array" of .38/.357 revolvers-? Sounds like bias and we all know how bias affects one's conclusions.
Me, I own an "array" of 'both' .327/.32 Mag/.32 S&W Long and .357/.38 revolvers. In fact, I'd have to sit down and count all of the latter. I hit 100 (.357/.38) a few years ago. Probably another 7 or 8 since then.
I used to think I have a lot of revolvers...but I may start referring to them as an "array".
"The numerate"-? "Numerate" is an adjective and really doesn't work too well as an objective moun. That's very weak sentence construction. I mean, since you're crowing about how smart you are when you "explain math and physics" to the hoi polloi, you really should be exact in all the academic arts, right?
I've never seen "generated data" leave the muzzle from any of my array of revolvers (or other guns) neither "recently or over the decades". 'Course now, maybe I'm not "good folk". Maybe I'm just a guy with a lot of guns (some might even say an "array") who's done lots and lots of shooting in all kinds of, um...'settings'.
Mayhap you got beat up every day in 6th grade by the other boys for talking like that. Basic pythagorean theorems gleaned from "some books" were tested to determine how best to cram your mass into your wall locker: head first vs. feet first. Do you recall if their names were "Fackler, Keith, Sharpe, Marshall & Sanow"? Probably just Johnny, Frank, Bobby, and Darryl McDuff.
'Course, that might not have been the original "intended use" of said wall locker or "some books"; but who knows where reading such books may lead? It led you here to pontificate.
As for 'works' by all those illuminati; although I do like some of Elmer Keith's writing, my vast experience and keen observations work well for me. I did read something that may explain your repeated complaints of "smelling dogma and heresy", though:
"He who smelt it, dealt it"
- Darryl McDuff, 20thC. Poet & Philosopher
'Scuze me while I go inventory my "array".
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Rock Man:
It is pretty clear you have significant emotional investment in the .327FM. Very well. You were not reasoned into you emotional attachment to .327FM, so you won't be reasoned with as to its objective utility.
May you derive pleasure and happiness from it in the future, until the end of your days.
It is pretty clear you have significant emotional investment in the .327FM. Very well. You were not reasoned into you emotional attachment to .327FM, so you won't be reasoned with as to its objective utility.
May you derive pleasure and happiness from it in the future, until the end of your days.
As expected, the "You're emotionally attached to your XXXXX" dismissal pops up. If I was emotionally attached, it would more likely be to .38/.357 given I have so damned many.
I just love those old S&W and Colt guns and pick them up whenever I can. 2008 - 2012 was especially productive for shaking them loose from all those nightstand drawers and closet shoe boxes where they were hiding. I think that's when I crossed over from having 'several' to an 'array'.
You are correct on one point, albeit for the wrong reason: I was not "reasoned into" my appreciation for the .327 (and .32 H&R Magnum). My respect for those calibers is derived from a decade of shooting the .327 and decades of shooting the .32 Mag...including (but not limited to) use on hogs, deer and coyote.
Like I said: 'get out and smell the cordite' and 'mayhap' you won't smell that dogma and heresy...or hearsay, for that matter.
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Saleen322
Member
We have shot rounds as heavy as 153 grain from the 327 with good accuracy. The problem with the 153 is it is too long for the Henry carbine to use in the magazine. My guess is it may also be too long for a single 7 as the cylinder is shorter than the one used in the Blackhawk. That said, the bullets we favor are the 120 grain (SD 0.176) and the best so far has been the 132 (SD 0.194). They would compare favorably with a 38/357 158 grain (SD 0.177) and a 170 grain (SD 0.191) These sectional density numbers would indicate very good penetration potential depending on your application. These two bullets work well in all 3 of our guns so we load almost nothing else now.
We always have accuracy over velocity as our priority. As stated previously we chronographed a decent sized sample. The sample was not just for load development but much more for temperature range behavior, fine tuning a load to perform well in 3 different guns, and centering the standard deviation sweet spots as much as possible for all the guns whether it is 15 degrees or 95 degrees. I also believe hand loading is always a work in progress in that what is the best today is always subject to adjustment tomorrow. YMMV
We always have accuracy over velocity as our priority. As stated previously we chronographed a decent sized sample. The sample was not just for load development but much more for temperature range behavior, fine tuning a load to perform well in 3 different guns, and centering the standard deviation sweet spots as much as possible for all the guns whether it is 15 degrees or 95 degrees. I also believe hand loading is always a work in progress in that what is the best today is always subject to adjustment tomorrow. YMMV
Ohen Cepel
Member
I like the .32 family and will stick with them. Nope, not the solution to everything but I like them.
onegunred
Member
I have a Ruger Single Seven with the 4.6" barrel and I load my own ammo. I use the HyTek 78gr. bullet from MBC with 5.0gr of Universal and a CCI small pistol primer. Nice load with good accuracy and just fun to shoot. It is a lot easier on my 72 yr old arm than my 44 SBH.
onegunred
Member
Rock Man, no I do not have chrono readings and yes it is the #18. The club has a chrono but to line up the gate keeper the battery man and a range officer all at the same time aint gonna happen. It is a middle of the road load is all I can say based on Hodgdon data.
I know what you mean on lining up all the apparatus.
I think I'll give it a try. At 78g it should be still be fairly zippy.
onegunred
Member
Rock Man, I could load up to 6 gr. of Universal but for punching paper I don't think it is necessary. Should a need arise I do have some 85 gr. XTPs and some 2400 along with CCI small rifle primers, I will use some where between 11 and 12.5 gr. per the Brian Pierce load data. Good Luck, Jerry
SwampWolf
Member
For me, when considering an edc handgun intended for self-defense, the 20% greater capacity the .327 Magnum offers vs the .38 Special/.357 Magnum (6 vs 5) in smaller frame revolvers, is reason enough to go with the .327 cartridge; maybe the only reason, albeit plenty of enough reason. One can always argue all day long that five is enough for the "statistically typical" gun fight scenario, I guess-until it isn't.
In my thirty year career in le, I've had more than a few occasions to interview people involved in gun fights and I don't recall anyone who wouldn't have killed for a few more cartridges for themselves while bullets were being traded with others hell-bent on killing them. If five is enough, why not four? And, yes, seven would be better than six but you can only cram so much in a relatively small frame revolver intended for edc.
Of course, you can always look for a vintage Colt Cobra chambered in .38 Special; it's what I carry lots of the time.
In my thirty year career in le, I've had more than a few occasions to interview people involved in gun fights and I don't recall anyone who wouldn't have killed for a few more cartridges for themselves while bullets were being traded with others hell-bent on killing them. If five is enough, why not four? And, yes, seven would be better than six but you can only cram so much in a relatively small frame revolver intended for edc.
Of course, you can always look for a vintage Colt Cobra chambered in .38 Special; it's what I carry lots of the time.
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Armybrat
Member
Just picked this .327 Single Seven up today....Man, that's a good looking gun! I have the Single Six just like that in .32 Magnum both in stainless and in blue...and I have the Single Seven in .327 with 'regular grips'...but not that one.
Reckon I'm gonna have me some of them French fried taters, mmm-hmmm....I mean, reckon I'm gonna have to get me one of them Single Seven with birdhead grips, mmmm-hmmm...
Reckon I'm gonna have me some of them French fried taters, mmm-hmmm....I mean, reckon I'm gonna have to get me one of them Single Seven with birdhead grips, mmmm-hmmm...
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