You're new at CCW and walk into a store robbery

[RX-79G]

Many self defense shootings involve no arrest or charges. It depends entirely on how justified the shoot appears when the cops show up. Armed men breaking into your home, mini-mart security camera showing aggressive armed robber - maybe nothing more than a thank you.

Shoot an unarmed kid after the police told you to stay in your car - there'll be legal fees.

 

[Warp]

Many self defense shootings involve no arrest or charges. It depends entirely on how justified the shoot appears when the cops show up. Armed men breaking into your home, mini-mart security camera showing aggressive armed robber - maybe nothing more than a thank you.

Shoot an unarmed kid after the police told you to stay in your car - there'll be legal fees.

No police ever told him to do that, don't lie. It's for your own good as it tells us you don't actually know the subject matter.

 

[Old Guy]

He sees us two, swings the pistol our way, my Wife is going to the ground, and out of sight line (yes we have discussed this) I am shooting him, most likely a lot.

My Wife is sharp, we have practiced skipping rounds off the deck. That is one of the reasons you need to be a good shot! An assailant has taken cover behind a hefty steel dumpster! Pops his eye out now and again! But his toe is out all the time, twenty yards away? Drop a round, 6" in front of said toe, OUCH!
Fire twice. If he tumbles to the deck? Two more. Same 6".

 

[Warp]

My Wife is sharp, we have practiced skipping rounds off the deck. That is one of the reasons you need to be a good shot! An assailant has taken cover behind a hefty steel dumpster! Pops his eye out now and again! But his toe is out all the time, twenty yards away? Drop a round, 6" in front of said toe, OUCH!
Fire twice. If he tumbles to the deck? Two more. Same 6".

I'm thinking that...probably...most of the time in a scenario like this...retreating while watching is a better course of action. Eye pops out, sees you pointing at him and pops back, or you shoot and he pops back...get the hell out of there

 

[RX-79G]

No police ever told him to do that, don't lie. It's for your own good as it tells us you don't actually know the subject matter.

You're right. The police didn't ask him to stay in the car, they asked him to not even follow Martin:

Dispatcher: Are you following him?
Zimmerman: Yeah.
Dispatcher: Okay, we don't need you to do that.
Zimmerman: Okay.

 

[Indawind]

This topic is solidly planted in reality and the responses cover it well so I will only say that its not my problem, not my money and not my job responsibility. If I am personally threatened, then everything changes.

What I do want to comment on is the reoccurring "be a good witness" sentiment in this thread. In another forum, non-gun, a friend posted a story of his son. I will not repost it without his permission but in a nutshell it goes like this.

Son pulls into a parking lot at the end of an altercation that he witnesses. The car with the perp and his woman leaves and hit and runs a car in the street. The son follows the car, get the plate while on with 911 so he is also giving general locations. LEO responds and takes the care of the situation.

Son is asked for his statement and doesn't want to be "on paper" as a witness but is assured by the LEO (read lied to) that he will be anonymous.

Fast forward a few days and the woman and a couple of her friends show up at his door because "her man" is in jail due to him. Guess how she found him.

This pretty much solidified my position that it would be a rare circumstance that would make me have the least bit of concern outside of my personal circle of people I will take care of. Everybody has the right and the ability to take care of themselves, if they choose not to it isn't my problem. It is a LEO's job catch bad guys, not mine. I am sure there will be plenty of "good witnesses" available. You see them on the news all the time, the person looking like an idiot on camera.

Too many variables are involved to be clear cut by any means but it was said well. Think through where your personal line in the sand is so you don't need to look down to see how close you are too it.

 

[X-Rap]

Kinda hard to argue that point.
Being a good witness is down the list a ways for me


Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

 

[Warp]

You're right. The police didn't ask him to stay in the car, they asked him to not even follow Martin:

Wrong and wrong.

#1: Dispatchers are not police.

#2: "You don't need to do that" is NOT the same as "do not do that". Words matter.

#3: Not needing to follow is NOT the same thing as "stay in your car". Words matter.

So, back to the start:

...after the police told you to stay in your car

Never happened ^, because they weren't police, they did not tell him what to do or not to do, and they didn't even mention anything about staying in the car.

 

[Old Dog]

So this story ...

What I do want to comment on is the reoccurring "be a good witness" sentiment in this thread. In another forum, non-gun, a friend posted a story of his son. I will not repost it without his permission but in a nutshell it goes like this. Son pulls into a parking lot at the end of an altercation that he witnesses. The car with the perp and his woman leaves and hit and runs a car in the street. The son follows the car, get the plate while on with 911 so he is also giving general locations. LEO responds and takes the care of the situation.

Son is asked for his statement and doesn't want to be "on paper" as a witness but is assured by the LEO (read lied to) that he will be anonymous.

Fast forward a few days and the woman and a couple of her friends show up at his door because "her man" is in jail due to him. Guess how she found him.

This pretty much solidified my position that it would be a rare circumstance that would make me have the least bit of concern outside of my personal circle of people I will take care of.

... is basically just what I term "social cowardice." Too many people these days don't get involved and do the right thing because they worry the bad folks might come after them.

Essentially, why the criminals go uncaught for so long in many places -- because the citizens don't stand up against them. And while it may be the "LEO's job to catch the bad guys," it's our responsibility to help them do this. Cops can't solve every crime without assistance from the good citizens. If someone doesn't have the courage to do what is right -- be a good citizen, be socially responsible -- I personally have no respect for them.

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

So this story ...
... is basically just what I term "social cowardice." Too many people these days don't get involved and do the right thing because they worry the bad folks might come after them.

Essentially, why the criminals go uncaught for so long in many places -- because the citizens don't stand up against them. And while it may be the "LEO's job to catch the bad guys," it's our responsibility to help them do this. Cops can't solve every crime without assistance from the good citizens. If someone doesn't have the courage to do what is right -- be a good citizen, be socially responsible -- I personally have no respect for them.

Except in THIS instance, the bad guys DID come after them.

While I do agree in principle, this isn't something which can be discounted or ignored. The can be a very real possibility, which means it is another factor which must be considered.

The extent to which this factor is considered is based on the individual and the circumstances that individual finds himself to be in.

 

[buck460XVR]

Those of us who have been around this kind of topic for awhile know as soon as the scenario presents two different appearances like that, on the street no less...that is exactly where it is going lol


The other popular one is a female running from a male yelling rape, and it's a prostitute fleeing detention/arrest by a non-uniform (often vice) officer.

This is also why you don't flash your gun thinking you will just scare the robber away. Cops bust in responding to a alarm and see some dude waving a gun at folks..........

 

[Flechette]

So this story ...
... is basically just what I term "social cowardice." Too many people these days don't get involved and do the right thing because they worry the bad folks might come after them.

Essentially, why the criminals go uncaught for so long in many places -- because the citizens don't stand up against them. And while it may be the "LEO's job to catch the bad guys," it's our responsibility to help them do this. Cops can't solve every crime without assistance from the good citizens. If someone doesn't have the courage to do what is right -- be a good citizen, be socially responsible -- I personally have no respect for them.

Except in THIS instance, the bad guys DID come after them.

While I do agree in principle, this isn't something which can be discounted or ignored. The can be a very real possibility, which means it is another factor which must be considered.

The extent to which this factor is considered is based on the individual and the circumstances that individual finds himself to be in.

I have to echo Old Dog a bit.

It is my belief that why a lot of Third World countries are so messed up is that no one is willing to talk to the police. Everyone knows who the criminals are, what they did and how they did it, but no one talks.

Now I understand how they are worried about a gang coming to get them to make an example out of them, and because they are not armed (as a result of gun control) the innocent citizen cannot do anything to prevent it. They and their family can be brutally executed.

But we *do* have guns. If we want to keep from going Third World we need to keep them...and use them when necessary.

 

[Warp]

So this story ...
... is basically just what I term "social cowardice." Too many people these days don't get involved and do the right thing because they worry the bad folks might come after them.

Essentially, why the criminals go uncaught for so long in many places -- because the citizens don't stand up against them. And while it may be the "LEO's job to catch the bad guys," it's our responsibility to help them do this. Cops can't solve every crime without assistance from the good citizens. If someone doesn't have the courage to do what is right -- be a good citizen, be socially responsible -- I personally have no respect for them.

I don't know that I would call somebody a coward because they don't want their wife or children or elderly parents answering the door when a hood rat and a couple enforcers show up while you are away because you snitched on them.

In some places, in some cases, with some people, etc etc, this might be a legitimate concern, and I'm sure that is a difficult decision.

 

[larry_minn]

Back away, call Chuck Norris, get cell phone video ready...

I don't want to shoot anyone. More important I don't want to get shot.

Local guy shot knife wielding suspect. I bet he wishes he didn't have to shoot suspect. ( for personal reasons) everyone 2nd guessing him. Talk of charges FOR HIM for over a week before it was announced no charges PLANNED. (So imo still posdible).
One time I held a person who shot another (in my presence) in back... I had him at gunpoint. I had decided NOT to draw as I was SURE he would run away, I could render aid to injured, give good description of shooter....

Instead he walked up to put one in head. So I drew, disarmed, once secure


I GOT THE HECK OUT OF THERE. 1980s no camera,cell phone...everywhere.
That's not possible now.
I will stick with avoid unless lives in clear peril.

 

[RX-79G]

Back away, call Chuck Norris, get cell phone video ready...

I don't want to shoot anyone. More important I don't want to get shot.

Local guy shot knife wielding suspect. I bet he wishes he didn't have to shoot suspect. ( for personal reasons) everyone 2nd guessing him. Talk of charges FOR HIM for over a week before it was announced no charges PLANNED. (So imo still posdible).
One time I held a person who shot another (in my presence) in back... I had him at gunpoint. I had decided NOT to draw as I was SURE he would run away, I could render aid to injured, give good description of shooter....

Instead he walked up to put one in head. So I drew, disarmed, once secure


I GOT THE HECK OUT OF THERE. 1980s no camera,cell phone...everywhere.
That's not possible now.
I will stick with avoid unless lives in clear peril.

The shooter you disarmed, was he caught and convicted?

 

[larry_minn]

No.....
The rest of story.

Students just off campus. BLANKS. Yep a stunt. Just wanted to freak out students taking gf back to dorm.....
Guy on ground begging "don't shoot man it's just a joke".......
Posted entire story before. I KNEW when I challanged shooter he was going to turn to sound of my voice....I was going to act on gun coming in my direction...@25' drt. Thankfully he froze.
Taking word of "victim" I bailed as quietly as I could.
Thing is. It was real UNTIL it wasn't. What I (or reasonable) person knew at that SECOND is what matters.
If I was one of "shoot the sob, no warning, why give up advantage..." My life would have changed. Even with things being different in 80 s. Shooter being white....
It still (best possible outcome) if I had shot him would have messed up my life.

Heck not having shot I still got shakes for long time after, questioned carrying a gun...
Felt the training, my faith in my ability allowed me to hesitate until no other option before firing. Dang getting hint of shakes just thinking how close..

 

[Flechette]

Instead he walked up to put one in head. So I drew, disarmed, once secure

Are you saying that he committed suicide?

 

[larry_minn]

Are you saying that he committed suicide?

No. I expected shooter to run away as students screaming, dorm "mother" yelling... So I decided to let him run. Safer for everyone and just maybe I could stabilize victim on ground ( actually street with cars stopped) instead shooter walks up and does action to put rd in victim's head.
Why I hate giving part. Too many questions.

 

[Robert]

Oh for the love. We are not rehashing the Martin case for the 900th time.