Zero Tolerance Policy

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NoLo:

That was wrong, and a misapplication of Zero Tolerance. As I said, I was an administrator under zero tolerance. I dealt with 206 major cases of decisions Re: discipline. Never once did I have to expel a student.

Your case is a case of the administrative team either not knowing the law, the board adopting improper policy or blantant disregard. But, under no circumstances should there have been an absence of due process.

Regardless of the "how" this misapplication happened, it does not erase the experience from your life! But understand this, there are other educators out there who are fighting this abuse.

In closing, here is a part of my opening statements to my graduate students:
"...as you make decisions regarding your students, faculty and others, think twice. The only thing worse than failing this course would be to have me show up in court as the witness against you for your abuses or negligence."

And let me ask you, have you written to your state A.G.? If not, you should! More victims of these abuses need to speak out. I too have family members who are the victims of abuses. The difference...they called me to have me intervene; intervene I did.

Doc2005
 
While I agree with you, Doc, I think that the very essence of Zero Tolerance is this sort of "when in doubt (or even not) expel, expel, expel!!"
ZT is supposed to be a sort of "deterrent" to people. Kind of like MAD in the Cold War: "if you do even this small thing, it's the cart for you!"
I think that you cannot have justice with Zero Tolerance. That's why the justice system doesn't use it. It is at its heart unjust, a witch hunt. If you have a student who had a weapon, brought it into school, and had intent to use it, should you expel them? Absolutely. But that's not Zero Tolerance, because you had tolerance for all the people who didn't qualify for that measure.
The school administration knew that I had brought that knife in accidentally. They knew that I had no intent to use it. That's why I wasn't expelled. But Zero Tolerance wouldn't allow for any leniency with simple mistakes. Zero Tolerance is Zero Tolerance, and must be APPEASED!
To quote my school manual:
"Bringing a weapon onto school property, other than a firearm, or something that looks like or could be used as a weapon.
First offense: Minumum: 10 days suspension, expulsion conference.
First offense: Maximum: Expulsion."
Now, that's drawn from memory, but it's pretty accurate, as the rule is burned into my head. They can get you for anything with the maximum offense.
Zero Tolerance needs to go.
 
NoLo:

If it helps any, I know one administrator who was pushed out of the administrative position for refusing (literal insubordination) to expel or even suspend a student under Zero Tolerance. After defending the student for an entire academic year, the event resulted in a formal school board hearing, and the board casting their vote: 7-0 in the student's favor. That administrator was me! ;)

It was ugly! I sat through being called everything but level-headed. In private it was even worse! The student's parents, oddly enough, never once came to me to say "...thank-you for going-to-the-mats!" I risked being fired for this student, and not one, single, solitary human being ever said thanks. After I left, I basically doubled my wages. I told the superintendent as I was walking out, "Max...I would not change a single decision I have ever made in my career. This child is literally alive because of my stance!"

Max looked at me and said, "I know. I agree. I wouldn't change my position either." Max left mid-year that following year.

So, NoLo. Some of us educators will literally risk being fired to defend students. Keep that in mind. Some of us are good-guys. :D

This event is a chapter in the decision-making text I am publishing. To be released soon.

Doc2005
 
I'm 27 now and when I was in middle school there were a few fights and what not, and I was suspended. Now at least locally I hear that the majority of these altercations call for police interaction and substantially more severe of a punishment. What gives people?
krusty
 
I'm 27 now and when I was in middle school there were a few fights and what not, and I was suspended. Now at least locally I hear that the majority of these altercations call for police interaction and substantially more severe of a punishment. What gives people?
krusty
 
Hades on high! When I was in school, the educators would have us put on boxing gloves and duke it out! We established a pecking-order pretty quick!

When I was a principal, I saw the difference between a spat, self-defense, a fight or a physical attack. Guess too many administrators are afraid to go through what I faced, or just plain old CYA!
 
Here's to hoping your article gets published and there isn't a Zero Tolerance Zero Tolerance policy.
 
NoLo:

If it helps any, I know one administrator who was pushed out of the administrative position for refusing (literal insubordination) to expel or even suspend a student under Zero Tolerance. After defending the student for an entire academic year, the event resulted in a formal school board hearing, and the board casting their vote: 7-0 in the student's favor. That administrator was me!

It was ugly! I sat through being called everything but level-headed. In private it was even worse! The student's parents, oddly enough, never once came to me to say "...thank-you for going-to-the-mats!" I risked being fired for this student, and not one, single, solitary human being ever said thanks. After I left, I basically doubled my wages. I told the superintendent as I was walking out, "Max...I would not change a single decision I have ever made in my career. This child is literally alive because of my stance!"

Max looked at me and said, "I know. I agree. I wouldn't change my position either." Max left mid-year that following year.

So, NoLo. Some of us educators will literally risk being fired to defend students. Keep that in mind. Some of us are good-guys.

This event is a chapter in the decision-making text I am publishing. To be released soon.

Doc2005
Click to expand...
Technically, Doc, if you want the proper capitalization of my name, it's NoLO (for No Live Operator), but I just spell it Nolo. :D

Anyway, people do fight for students, but that doesn't change the fact that ZTPs are just heinous. They don't take into account the crime, only meting out punishment to establish an air of fear. Is that the environment that I want to learn in? No. I'd rather have crazies toting guns (as long as I could have one too, bye-bye crazies!;)). School is becoming increasingly fascist and totalitarian, and, as people who know me well will tell you, I don't get along well with fascism. (okay, technically I'm using fascism incorrectly, but it's what I've taken to calling the repressive for-your-own-good atmosphere that has been established in my school.)

Anyway, thank you, Doc, for your service to the student body of the school at which you were a teacher. I know I appreciate it, even if it didn't affect me. I wish that people would be as level-headed, fair and unyielding of principle as you.
Thank you, Doc.
 
Checking in quick to post the latest news:

Freshman girl expelled for remainder of this academic year for having her breakfast butter knife in her locker. School did hold what they called a hearing :banghead: but, had the decision-letter written and sealed days before the hearing was held and vote taken. :cuss:

Pretty sick,

Doc
 
Let us hope her parents find a good lawyer, and/or an organization to back the attorney up. What I can't understand is how other parents in that school system would stand for this. The next victim could be their own child.

It's sort of interesting. The public schools where I live aren't worth zip for the most part for many reasons - sometimes not the fault of the system. But anyway I believe the number of private or charter schools in the area (K through 12) outnumber the public ones. Of course they don't have the same number of students, but the generally do better on Arizona's mandated tests.
 
Checking in quick to post the latest news:

Freshman girl expelled for remainder of this academic year for having her breakfast butter knife in her locker. School did hold what they called a hearing but, had the decision-letter written and sealed days before the hearing was held and vote taken.
Click to expand...

Doc, since you're familiar with the system do you think it would have been handled differently if her parents were card carrying members of the ACLU? I've always wondered if school administrators took a closer look at things when they knew the ACLU might come knocking as a result of their foolishness.
 
ZTP's suck. I was suspended 8 times because "fighting back is just as bad". 4 of those times I was in retreat or blocking punches exclusively. My school just wanted me to roll over and die if attacked, no matter that I'm backed into a corner(which I was, on two occasions), I'm supposed to run and tell a teacher. I REALLY wanted to jump across the principle's desk and start beating the crap out of him, just so I could yell "FIGHTING BACK IS JUST AS BAD!" while smashing his head against the wall. I decided assault charges and expulsion weren't worth it, but I still think that he needed someone to beat some sense into him.
 
I hate zero tolerance policies because they strip those expected to enforce them of their expectation of possessing proper reasoning skills and the ability to utilize good judgment.

These policies are basically a reaction to having people that lack proper judgment and reasoning skills holding down positions that require some degree of good judgment. For example, a teacher distinguishing between the severity of a kid drawing a GI Joe figure with a gun and another kid drawing a picture that depicts him shooting the principal of his school.

But, rather than replace these people that lack good judgment with those that do possess good judgment, the requirement for using good judgment is replaced with a "one size fits all" policy of required action. And we wonder why we have so many problems in the areas where these policy are created.

Also, is it any wonder that most of these areas are also unionized areas? Unions prevent an employer form using "poor judgment skills" as a reason to terminate employment so the employer has to basically micromanage this person by making his decisions for him. When these these types of "protected" employees that can't be fire become so numerous that an employee can't personally micromanage them all, he has to create a general policy that dictates how these employees will act and what these employees will be expected to do under very generalized circumstances.

So, IMHO, at the root of the "zero tolerance problem" is the fact that employers have employees with poor reasoning skills who are unable to make proper decisions as required by the job they hold but are protected from being replaced with other employees that do have better reasoning skills.
 
I would suggest you read "The Death of Common Sense".

The "zero tolerance" policies are a tool used to avoid responsibility for decision making. Every politician wants Authority, but hates Responsibility.
When they can defer to some "zero tolerance" policy ("it's not up to me, it's the RULES") , they are saying they have no option, and no decision, thus no responsibility.
Remember the old saying "it is aways safest to say NO"? Cause if you say YES, something might go wrong? Same sort of idea.
 
Hey folks...taking a quick break from working.

This whole thing is just nuts. I spent an hour or so today planning to start a blog through my college and education department where I am a graduate professor. The blog will be in defense of these Zero Tolerance victims. The technology department loved the idea.

When I get caught up, we will have a 2nd meeting to get the ball rolling. When I get things running, I will advise. There's a lot of work to do. Odd, I too was wondering where the Hades is the ACLU?!?!?!

Doc2005
 
I've got a thought....

In this world of Zero Tolerance... where a gun company can be found responsible for something some idiot does with their product.... How about we hold Lawyers responsible for when ever a lawbreaker goes free, and then commits another crime???
Sounds about equal to me... actually if you think about it makes more sense than a lot of what's been going on lately...
Everybody's so fixated on what's "legal, and not legal" and no one cares anymore about what's right and wrong.:(
 
I remember being told in middle school or high school, a health teacher telling us that we were allowed to "defend" ourselves by blocking punches and the like, but we were not allowed to fight back. What idiocy. My parents, however, always taught me to hit back, "Zero tolerance" be damned. I have very good parents.

These people need to lose their jobs.
 
When any zero tolerance policy is used, the bureaucrats in charge are essentially saying that the people tasked with enforcing their policy are not intelligent enough to decide one way or another on a case, so everyone should be assumed guilty of the maximum offense.
 
Mannix

My son was disciplined because he was beaten up by three other kids. Their zero tolerance policy says that anyone 'involved in a fight' gets disciplined. People (including teachers) who saw the fight said that all he did was curl up in a ball and protect his face from kicks and punches by boys several years older. The princiuple basically told me that 'rules were rules and there was nothing he could do.'

Zero tolerance is screwed up. I tell my kids to fight back and I will take care of what comes next.
 
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