10mm AR

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MachIVshooter

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So, early last summer, I ordered a 20" 10mm barrel blank from Green Mountain, the intent to build a Stoner gas system AR upper. I picked up an upper and BCG around the same time, and opened up the bolt face and extractor to accept 10mm cases right away. But it took me until now to get around to the barrel. Many other projects, plus $150 for the chamber reamer and barrel extension wrench that I just always seemed to have more important ways to spend. But I finally ordered them last month, and today we tackled the barrel. Threaded the back end, chambered it, installed barrel extension, headspaced, cut muzzle threads (5/8-24) and then profiled it slightly lighter than gov't. profile.

(Sorry for the crappy pic)

IMG_20170107_2242580921_zpse7jfrpdx.jpg


It's 10.5" with pistol gas, and I started small on the port for obvious reasons. First shots were stovepipes, so I started opening up the port. Got it ejecting and even stripping new rounds from a 5.56 P-mag, but no lock on empty. So I grabbed the lightened carrier from my featherweight build and took the weights out of the buffer, but still no lock. I decided to call it at 1am, and proceeded to write an email to Ron Williams, the only person I know of making Stoner gas system 10mm ARs. What that means is one of two things:

1) Mr. Williams will have a suggestion for getting it to run right, and I'll proceed with the standard 10mm auto.

2) I will not be able to make this barrel and pistol gas system work with 10mm auto, so I will be forced to do something I've been wanting to do for a long time; build a 10mm magnum :evil:

In anticipation of #2 being likely, and the fact that it'll happen eventually anyway, I just placed an order for 1,000 10mm mag cases. So, more than likely, in a short time you all will be seeing video of perhaps the only 10mm magnum AR in existence :D 10mm mag with bullets loaded long should feed well from a standard 5.56 magazine, and 200 grain JHPs leaving the 10.5" barrel at ~1,600-1,700 FPS is nothing to sneeze at!
 
That ought to be pretty slick. You gonna thread it for a can?

I have a G20. Power is impressive but so is muzzle blast. I load 180 Speer Gold Dots over Blue Dot. Cranks 'em out.
 
MachIV I gotta ask...why didn't you just get a 40 cal bcg? I mean I figure if you had the BCG on hand then yeah it would be cheaper than going with a 10mm/40 cal unit.

second...would an adjustable gas block possibly help out in this case? Not sure if they even MAKE one for a pistol upper but could you possibly modify an adjustable rifle block for this purpose? Also...this may actually point back to my first question...could the bolt carrier groups weight make a difference? Is there a significant weight difference between the BCGs? You didn't specify if it was a rifle or pistol group so that is why I ask.

All in all a very neat project and I hope to hear more about it. :)
 
You gonna thread it for a can?

It is, 5/8-24. Just doesn't look it in the lowsy pic.

What powder are you using in the 10mm loads?

IMR-800x for the most part, sometimes Blue Dot and others.

MachIV I gotta ask...why didn't you just get a 40 cal bcg? I mean I figure if you had the BCG on hand then yeah it would be cheaper than going with a 10mm/40 cal unit.

They are blowback.

second...would an adjustable gas block possibly help out in this case? Not sure if they even MAKE one for a pistol upper but could you possibly modify an adjustable rifle block for this purpose? Also...this may actually point back to my first question...could the bolt carrier groups weight make a difference? Is there a significant weight difference between the BCGs? You didn't specify if it was a rifle or pistol group so that is why I ask.

I've already got the port opened up to the same diameter as the hole in the gas tube. Can't get any more gas flow than that. ANd yes, BCG and buffer weight will make a difference, which is why I tried an empty buffer and the lightened (by 2.9 ounces) carrier out of my featherweight build.

Right now I'm looking for the box of 100 10mm mag cases I ordered years ago, leaning more that way after sleeping on it.
 
I'll bet if that gas port were even one inch closer...
Oh well, you win some and lose some, and 10mag is a cooler chambering.

BTW, muzzle devices may be able to give you the extra little push needed through backpressure (excuse for Form 1 silencer ;))
 
I always thought the 10mmMag would make a great rifle cartridge.

Yup!

The only reason I was going for standard 10mm is that I feel a 200 gr JHP @ ~1050 FPS would be a better suppressed performer than .300 Blk subsonic loads, with a larger bullet that is designed to expand at those low velocities. But if I can't get it to run even with hot 10mm loads, obviously subsonics won't work.

Might just mean doing another barrel out of the other half of the blank with a gas port pretty much right in front of the chamber. We'll see what Mr. Williams has to say (hopefully)

BTW, muzzle devices may be able to give you the extra little push needed through backpressure (excuse for Form 1 silencer ;))

My form 4 on a Silencerco Hybrid is due any time now, check cashed June 1 :)
 
I've always wanted a 10MM SBR in an AR platform and have asked Quarter Circle 10 if/ when a 10MM would be available. They mentioned an interest in it a while ago but nothing yet. https://www.quartercircle10.com/. Will keep an eye out on your progress as I'd love to add one to the collection one day
 
IMR-800x for the most part, sometimes Blue Dot and others.
Seems like they would produce a good amount of gas for a 10mm. But as you already found out its not enough.

Since short barrels like on an SBR have less time between the corked barrel it leave less opportunity for the gas to reach full potential before uncorking.

Are you using a Carbine buffer tube? (guessing you are and I may have missed that being mentioned).
To be honest I would guess a real light buffer would alleviate the bolt hold open. But do they make them? I'm thinking you need a buffer around the 2-2.5 OZ. range.
 
The 10mmMag might make your magazine choices easier.

I think so. I believe with rounds loaded long it will be able to use standard AR mags. The specified COAL is 1.6", but with 200 gr. bullets, no reason I can't get them to 1.75", 1/2" longer than 10mm auto and 1/2" shorter than the 5.56. With cases that are pretty much straight, and still long enough to not jump feed lips or otherwise get wonky if they shift fore and aft in the mag, I think it'll work. I'll sacrifice my subsonic capability but gain a lot of horsepower and (hopefully) much simplify swapping this upper onto my only SBR lower, with no need for custom mags and a well spacer.

With the lower pressure and velocity, I think it'll still suppress decently, too. That Hybrid can is pretty impressive, and a lot of internal volume for cartridges only burning ~20 grains of powder. Even with FRP, 9mm 124gr. NATO fired from my pack rifle (16.5" tube, supersonic velocity) through my FFL's demo can sounded about like CCI Quiet .22 from a rifle.

As I said, I'm still gonna wait to hear what Ron Williams has to say, but I think it's about a foregone conclusion that I'll be running that reamer 1/4" deeper. However, now owning the reamer, the barrel extension wrench, and having a leftover piece of barrel blank, I'll almost certainly do another with a different gas port location to use standard and subsonic 10mm auto. Or I could just go blowback. Maybe. Can't have too many uppers anyway!

Is there an advantage of direct impingement over blowback in this application?

Weight, gentler operation, uniqueness.

And the AR is not direct impingement ;)
 
10 mag...run the 180 conicals and you should be pushing 2000 fps. Your build is exactly what I wanted to do, but I just don't have the money to dump on it at the moment.
 
My dealer is supposed to have a Hybrid on the way but I haven't heard from him in a while. It's what I was going to use on the .450. ;)
 
Are you sure your gas port is fully aligned up with the hole in the gas block? It does not look like you have a gap where the handguard end plate would go. I know of some guys who have had issues with that when not accounting for the need for a gap when installing free float tubes.


.
 
Why don't you take a couple coils off the buffer spring? That's what it took to get my blackout running. I'd already lightened the buffer and enlarged the gas port.
 
Are you sure your gas port is fully aligned up with the hole in the gas block? It does not look like you have a gap where the handguard end plate would go. I know of some guys who have had issues with that when not accounting for the need for a gap when installing free float tubes.


.

Remember, I machined this barrel from a blank; the port is located for the block to seat on the shoulder
 
Sad that your so close. Everything but lock open when empty pretty much done or doable.

I would love to have a 10mm AR but price and problems like your having is why I don't give it a serious go. I would not want a blowback action either. ill be watching this one and hoping for a range report!
 
From my research on it, it seems like for 10mm gas guns they are using a gas system shorter than pistol length. I assume that is for max pressure and dwell time. With a longer barrel though your dwell time should be more than adequate. You could turn this barrel into a 10 mag and likely be fine, then use the remaining drop for experimentation with an even shorter gas system. I personally would play with powders too, but I hate tailoring a round to a specific gun when I have multiple guns that will shoot that ammo.
 
What did Mr. Williams have to say? I believe he made the 7.62x25 AR upper and mag block I have that is gas operated. I'd think 10mm would produce more gas volume and pressure than the 7.62x25 does.

Just for grins, have you tried any hot factory ammo like Black Hills or Georgia Arms?
 
What did Mr. Williams have to say? I believe he made the 7.62x25 AR upper and mag block I have that is gas operated. I'd think 10mm would produce more gas volume and pressure than the 7.62x25 does.

Just for grins, have you tried any hot factory ammo like Black Hills or Georgia Arms?

My loads are moving 180s at 1,400 from 5" pistols; they're plenty hot.

Ron Williams did confirm that he uses shorter than pistol length gas systems for these pistol caliber uppers. Since I already profiled mine down behind the gas block shoulder, and since I think they'll feed from a 5.56 magazine, I'm gonna proceed with reaming to 10mm mag.

As an aside, Starline brass is a very pleasant company to deal with. I called them just to make sure that production of 10m mag brass was planned to continue (Midway shows discontinued), and got a live human being without having to press any buttons. She was very friendly, answered that question confidently and immediately.
 
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