gunfan
Member
It is evident that Dan Wesson sure is!!!
10mm
- Thread starter RonGoode
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stans
Member
I think the Witness in 10mm is still being made, Glock still makes 10mm's. Colt is recovering from nearly going out of business, so they are not likely to build any 10's for a while. S&W pistols are very heavy and the double action may not appeal to those who choose to shoot the 10mm. If a distributor places a large order, 500 or more I think, S&W will make a run of almost any of their guns.
If a distributor places a large order, 500 or more I think, S&W will make a run of almost any of their guns.
END
So not even 500 people are interested in Smith 10mm's. The simple fact is its dying a slow death. It may never die completely but it will never gain more ground than it has now. Its the auto equalivilant of the 41 mag in more ways than one. It will continue to be used by die hard fans and thats about it.
Pat
END
So not even 500 people are interested in Smith 10mm's. The simple fact is its dying a slow death. It may never die completely but it will never gain more ground than it has now. Its the auto equalivilant of the 41 mag in more ways than one. It will continue to be used by die hard fans and thats about it.
Pat
Sean Smith
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- Dec 28, 2002
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- 4,925
So let me get this straight... if we exclude a half-dozen 10mm ammo makers, THEN we can argue that you can't get good, full power ammo from anybody? And if we ignore the 10mm power advantage, THEN it is only as good as .40 S&W? And if we ignore the guns made by Glock (20, 20C, 29), Kimber (Stainless Target II), Dan Wesson (Razorback, Pointman Major, etc.), EAA/Tanfolgio (Witness/Witness Compact/Witness Hunter), THEN we can say that there are no platforms available?
I've never heard Hornady not considered a "real" ammo maker before. Good one.
Brilliant. Deny enough reality and any argument starts making sense....
I've never heard Hornady not considered a "real" ammo maker before. Good one.
Brilliant. Deny enough reality and any argument starts making sense....
The 10mm is glocks slowest seller. A few people make 1911's in it and they also sell slow. Most of the big companies have dropped 10mm's. For instance Colt and Smith. What counts as an ammo maker. I reload 10mm want to count me as one of the vast supplies of 10mm ammo.
Pat
Pat
surfinUSA
Member
Hornady is primarilly a component manufacturer. Rarely if ever do I see their ammo on the shelves of my local gun stores. When I do its not in 10mm.
Dan Wesson and Kimber are small companies that can fill a niche and turn a small profit. And from what I've read about some of the Dan Wesson guns, I'd look to Kimber before buying a 10mm.
Colt makes what they can sell especially in the fragile financial position. If they thought they would sell enough 10s to make a profit they would.
Although primarily a revolver maker, S&W sells alot of 9, 40, and 45 semi autos so a fair number of people like or don't mind the slide mounted safety. Yet not enough liked the 10 and semi autos chambered for it were dropped. Only the 610 revolver remains.
HK, SIG, Beretta, and Ruger don't chamber it.
The 10 is potentially a great round but the sad truth is this, most people buy semi autos for self defense. The 9, 40 and 45 work just fine for this and are cheap and widely available. As someone already pointed out, these rounds are already putting two holes in people, so how much more velocity and pentration do you need.
As far as hunting goes. Most handgun hunters perceive that the fixed barrel of a revolver provides more accurracy than any semi auto, whether true or not. Although the 10 will beat the 357 mag and match lower end 41 mag loads it can't run with the hot 41s or the 44.
No one is in denial about the 10mms ability especially when loaded with double taps rounds, however, most of its proponents are in denial about its future.
With the 10mms actual ability, combined with all the good hype from gun rags at the time of its introduction you would thnk we would all have at least one. But we don't because the other SD semi autos work as well and have other advantages (size, availability and cost). And the same goes for hunting with the 357, 41 and 44 mags.
The 10mm will be around for a while longer, people have been predicting the death of the 41 for years and its still here. But the only way the 10mm will ever become popular with the general shooting public is if this country becomes like some others and prohibits the ownership of handguns chambered for military cartridges.
Dan Wesson and Kimber are small companies that can fill a niche and turn a small profit. And from what I've read about some of the Dan Wesson guns, I'd look to Kimber before buying a 10mm.
Colt makes what they can sell especially in the fragile financial position. If they thought they would sell enough 10s to make a profit they would.
Although primarily a revolver maker, S&W sells alot of 9, 40, and 45 semi autos so a fair number of people like or don't mind the slide mounted safety. Yet not enough liked the 10 and semi autos chambered for it were dropped. Only the 610 revolver remains.
HK, SIG, Beretta, and Ruger don't chamber it.
The 10 is potentially a great round but the sad truth is this, most people buy semi autos for self defense. The 9, 40 and 45 work just fine for this and are cheap and widely available. As someone already pointed out, these rounds are already putting two holes in people, so how much more velocity and pentration do you need.
As far as hunting goes. Most handgun hunters perceive that the fixed barrel of a revolver provides more accurracy than any semi auto, whether true or not. Although the 10 will beat the 357 mag and match lower end 41 mag loads it can't run with the hot 41s or the 44.
No one is in denial about the 10mms ability especially when loaded with double taps rounds, however, most of its proponents are in denial about its future.
With the 10mms actual ability, combined with all the good hype from gun rags at the time of its introduction you would thnk we would all have at least one. But we don't because the other SD semi autos work as well and have other advantages (size, availability and cost). And the same goes for hunting with the 357, 41 and 44 mags.
The 10mm will be around for a while longer, people have been predicting the death of the 41 for years and its still here. But the only way the 10mm will ever become popular with the general shooting public is if this country becomes like some others and prohibits the ownership of handguns chambered for military cartridges.
Sean Smith
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- Joined
- Dec 28, 2002
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- 4,925
Forgot to add: S&W 610 revolver. 
Nobody is claiming that 10mm will become a mass market darling cartridge like 9x19. So an argument in that vein is a waste of everyone's time.
It is worth pointing out that over the last year or two several additional 10mm guns are available for purchase (Witness Hunter, Kimber Stainless Target II, a couple Dan Wessons), and at least 2 companies introduced new lines of high-performance 10mm ammo (Texas Ammunition and Double Tap). Both Pro-Load and Cor-Bon ADDED additional 10mm loads to their offerings in the same time period as well.
That's a funny version of "dying."
That's RECENT history, too, not ancient history like the Delta Elite being discontinued the better part of a decade ago (along with most of Colt's other products in the 1990s).
Nobody is claiming that 10mm will become a mass market darling cartridge like 9x19. So an argument in that vein is a waste of everyone's time.
It is worth pointing out that over the last year or two several additional 10mm guns are available for purchase (Witness Hunter, Kimber Stainless Target II, a couple Dan Wessons), and at least 2 companies introduced new lines of high-performance 10mm ammo (Texas Ammunition and Double Tap). Both Pro-Load and Cor-Bon ADDED additional 10mm loads to their offerings in the same time period as well.
That's a funny version of "dying."
That's RECENT history, too, not ancient history like the Delta Elite being discontinued the better part of a decade ago (along with most of Colt's other products in the 1990s).
caz223
Member
Well, I sat back and watched this thread and the people in it malign my much-loved 10mm, calling it a dead cartridge.
I thought about just going on my merry way, and not letting my zeal get the better of me. That would have prolly been the smart thing to do.
But after a beer or two, I have to chime in.
I hope I don't regret it.
I have no intent on being a contestant, judge or even a spectator in a urination contest. After all, there's no telling when the wind's gonna pick up, or which way it's gonna blow.
I wrote a long-winded page or two, and realize that nobody's gonna read it anyway, so I erased it before I even posted.
I like the 10mm caliber, and as long as there are people who like it, and continue buying guns chambered for it, it's not gonna die.
If you have never actually shot a 10mm, please don't pass judgement until you have. You may find that you actually like it. *Horror* of horrors, I know.
If you don't like it, that's cool too. Whatever works.
If you are considering a 10mm, and think that it might be something that you would like, but you are reading this thread, and are listening to the misinformation that people are spreading around please don't let the nay-sayers get you down.
With this many loyal supporters, the 10mm can't be all bad.
Magnum-class power in a convenient-size auto package.
That sounds good, doesn't it?
I thought about just going on my merry way, and not letting my zeal get the better of me. That would have prolly been the smart thing to do.
But after a beer or two, I have to chime in.
I hope I don't regret it.
I have no intent on being a contestant, judge or even a spectator in a urination contest. After all, there's no telling when the wind's gonna pick up, or which way it's gonna blow.
I wrote a long-winded page or two, and realize that nobody's gonna read it anyway, so I erased it before I even posted.
I like the 10mm caliber, and as long as there are people who like it, and continue buying guns chambered for it, it's not gonna die.
If you have never actually shot a 10mm, please don't pass judgement until you have. You may find that you actually like it. *Horror* of horrors, I know.
If you don't like it, that's cool too. Whatever works.
If you are considering a 10mm, and think that it might be something that you would like, but you are reading this thread, and are listening to the misinformation that people are spreading around please don't let the nay-sayers get you down.
With this many loyal supporters, the 10mm can't be all bad.
Magnum-class power in a convenient-size auto package.
That sounds good, doesn't it?
If you have never actually shot a 10mm, please don't pass judgement until you have. You may find that you actually like it. *Horror* of horrors, I know.
If you don't like it, that's cool too. Whatever works.
END
I sold the Glock 20 I owned. I still have the 610 but it can fire 40sw.
Pat
If you don't like it, that's cool too. Whatever works.
END
I sold the Glock 20 I owned. I still have the 610 but it can fire 40sw.
Pat
If something has a niche that it is the ultimate master of it will never die. The 45-70 lay dormant for decades before it was rediscovered and people started building rifles and pistols for it. the demise of D&D and the Bren slowed the 10mm down but it is still the absolute best at what it does. If your state allows full cap mags you can have 15+ rounds of mag power in a reasonable package,
caz223
Member
My post wasn't directed at anyone specifically, just seems to me a lot of people diss what they don't understand.
My 610 doesn't get shot much, and I do admit when it does, it's mostly reloaded .40 s&w.
My G20 gets shot from time to time.
What bothers me is that in Michigan, some of the best hunting platforms available aren't legal for hunting.
.41 magnum lever action carbine, holds too many rounds to be legal, unless there is a way to plug it, (And plugging is legally accepted....) even though it's a revolver round, it's a carbine, so it must be used above the rifle/shotgun line. (Long drive due north from my house....) Also, another county to get a hunting permit with, and stuck hunting on state land...)
Same with the G20, holds more than 8+1, therefore, in Michigan, as a hunting tool, not legal.
Therefore, in southern Michigan, the best hunting tools that are available to me legally near my residence, are revolvers.
Now, my razorback, I believe that's legal to hunt with....
And makes a great hunting sidearm...
My 610 doesn't get shot much, and I do admit when it does, it's mostly reloaded .40 s&w.
My G20 gets shot from time to time.
What bothers me is that in Michigan, some of the best hunting platforms available aren't legal for hunting.
.41 magnum lever action carbine, holds too many rounds to be legal, unless there is a way to plug it, (And plugging is legally accepted....) even though it's a revolver round, it's a carbine, so it must be used above the rifle/shotgun line. (Long drive due north from my house....) Also, another county to get a hunting permit with, and stuck hunting on state land...)
Same with the G20, holds more than 8+1, therefore, in Michigan, as a hunting tool, not legal.
Therefore, in southern Michigan, the best hunting tools that are available to me legally near my residence, are revolvers.
Now, my razorback, I believe that's legal to hunt with....
And makes a great hunting sidearm...
Marcusgunfan
Member
Much as a does a wart...
the slow growth of the 10mm mystifies even the most intransigent of today's gunwriters! Bart Skelton himself in the hallowed pges of Guns and Ammo, begged the general shooting public not to let this grand cartridge die.
From his lips, to God's ears.
Scott
the slow growth of the 10mm mystifies even the most intransigent of today's gunwriters! Bart Skelton himself in the hallowed pges of Guns and Ammo, begged the general shooting public not to let this grand cartridge die.
From his lips, to God's ears.
Scott
Black Snowman
Member
The 10mm bug bit me a while back and I had pretty much decided on the Witness, primarly do to it's value (read inexpensive). But after looking at Sean's site and renting a Kimber I decided a Delta Elite wouldn't be too bad either. I didn't have a Government Model pattern gun yet and I'm not a huge fan of .45 ACP so this was about the only way I was going to get a 1911 style gun
Shortly after that I bought a bluded pre-Enhanced Delta Elite from a THR member and I'm really happy with it. I've done a few tweaks per Sean's page to improve it's longevity. I'm glad it's a fairly heavy gun as the recoil is noticable but it's really no worse than a smaller .40 S&W auto like my new CZ-40B.
IMHO I concur that the 10mm is the probably as powerful a round as I would want in an automatic for self defense or CCW. Anything more powerful and you're looking at a gun that's too big, too heavy, and too slow on follow-up shots. If you need to move up from there I'd say might as well go whole hog and get a long gun or a revolver with a truely powerful round like .44 Mag and up.
Shortly after that I bought a bluded pre-Enhanced Delta Elite from a THR member and I'm really happy with it. I've done a few tweaks per Sean's page to improve it's longevity. I'm glad it's a fairly heavy gun as the recoil is noticable but it's really no worse than a smaller .40 S&W auto like my new CZ-40B.
IMHO I concur that the 10mm is the probably as powerful a round as I would want in an automatic for self defense or CCW. Anything more powerful and you're looking at a gun that's too big, too heavy, and too slow on follow-up shots. If you need to move up from there I'd say might as well go whole hog and get a long gun or a revolver with a truely powerful round like .44 Mag and up.
12-34hom
Member
I've own a G-20 & currently have a D.W. Razorback. Glocks are fine weapons in there own right, but not for me.
1911 platform and 10mm are a marriage made in heaven.
Add to that some of D.T.'s 135 or 165 grain loads, and it's formidable CCW weapon.
To bad H&K does not make one of their USP models in 10mm - a full sized one in Variant #1 would be hard to beat.
12-34hom.
1911 platform and 10mm are a marriage made in heaven.
Add to that some of D.T.'s 135 or 165 grain loads, and it's formidable CCW weapon.
To bad H&K does not make one of their USP models in 10mm - a full sized one in Variant #1 would be hard to beat.
12-34hom.
caz223
Member
Yeah, I've often said if H&K made a 10mm USP or CZ made a 10mm 97b, I would own both....
gunfan
Member
10mm magic..
cannot be either imitated or equalled by either the .45 ACP or the .40 S&W. No matter what you do, the 10mm is in a "league" of its own!
The defense... rests!
Scott
cannot be either imitated or equalled by either the .45 ACP or the .40 S&W. No matter what you do, the 10mm is in a "league" of its own!
The defense... rests!
Scott
gunfan
Member
Alive and kickin'!!!
The reports of my demise have been greatly exaggerated! -- The 10mm Automatic Pistol Cartridge.
The reports of my demise have been greatly exaggerated! -- The 10mm Automatic Pistol Cartridge.
12-34hom
Member
No thanks Pat, I'll wait till H&K comes out with a 10 MM USP.
If i wanted a conversion = Para P-16 ltd = sent to Hunter Customs.
16 rounds of 10 MM = - makes 357Sig seem kinda puny by comparison.
12-34hom.
If i wanted a conversion = Para P-16 ltd = sent to Hunter Customs.
16 rounds of 10 MM =
- makes 357Sig seem kinda puny by comparison.12-34hom.
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