10mm
- Thread starter RonGoode
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12-34hom
Member
Pat is never wrong.
I intend to go in harms way - just not with a 357sig...
Make mine a 10mm.
12-34hom.
I intend to go in harms way - just not with a 357sig...
Make mine a 10mm.
12-34hom.
Beren
Moderator Emeritus
Not to add fuel to the fire, but I almost brought a S&W 1086 today to keep my 1076 company. I walked away due to a $20 gap between his asking price and what I was willing to pay. I guess it wasn't worth the extra $20 to me at the time, but let me tell you, the action on the 1086 was smooo-ooooth. (It's DAO, fwiw.) We'll see. It'll probably end up in my hands sometime in the next few months.
Who needs choices among 10 different firearm manufacturers when you have quality samples like the Glock 20, S&W 10xx, and a handful of 1911-pattern pistols available? I can only shoot two at a time anyway.
BTW, I purchsed my 1076 factory new just last spring, and I know a dealer who has another NIB 1076 that I might grab just to be greedy. While rare, one can find NIB 1076's, at least.
Who needs choices among 10 different firearm manufacturers when you have quality samples like the Glock 20, S&W 10xx, and a handful of 1911-pattern pistols available? I can only shoot two at a time anyway.
BTW, I purchsed my 1076 factory new just last spring, and I know a dealer who has another NIB 1076 that I might grab just to be greedy. While rare, one can find NIB 1076's, at least.
You'll have to excuse Pat, ........ not for being just another 10mm-hater, but apparently up in Alaska they sell Numbnutz beer, which leaves those who drink it, ah ... shall we say, somewhat irrational ...
That's a shame, because on the 10Ring over at GT there seem to be a lot of new and enthusiastic 10mm users in that state. Anyway, getting back to something relevant:
since Pat is ranting about "documentation," the ShootingTimes article to which I referred - if anyone cares - appeared in the Sept. 2001 issue and was written by Dick Metcalf. In fact, he specifically says he "was flatly astounded" at the 1998 SHOT show when S&W "re-introduced" its 610 10mm revolver (p.27). "By mid-2001," S&W "reaffirmed the place of the 10mm in its catalog" by adding the 4" 610.
But the best part was Metcalf's running 2500+ "rounds of 10mm factory loads through [the G20], including 2000 rounds of Norma's original hot-loaded 170-grain JHP." Metcalf states that groups "averaged 2.37 inches at 25 yards." The final 5-shot group @ 25yds with the old Norma load "measured 2.88 inches."
Thanks, Pat. It was nice to re-read the article again.
ARGH! What was Metcalf thinking burning up all that Norma fodder in a torture test?!?!
Beren,
Go back and grab that 1086, you won't regret it! I've been using one for my CCW piece for a while now and have been very happy with it. The trigger is very smooth, as you mention, but does take some getting used to, especially if you're predominantly a 1911 person (I kept pulling my shots low for quite a while). For its size and weight it's actually pretty concealable and is fast into action with nothing extra hanging off the sides other than the slide stop and mag release. And, as I'm sure you know, the S&W 10xx series guns are built like tanks!
Beren,
Go back and grab that 1086, you won't regret it! I've been using one for my CCW piece for a while now and have been very happy with it. The trigger is very smooth, as you mention, but does take some getting used to, especially if you're predominantly a 1911 person (I kept pulling my shots low for quite a while). For its size and weight it's actually pretty concealable and is fast into action with nothing extra hanging off the sides other than the slide stop and mag release. And, as I'm sure you know, the S&W 10xx series guns are built like tanks!
At 15 yards I was shooting 4" to 6" too low. I switched to the "humpback" style Hogue grips and by the time I had put about 500 rounds through the gun I was putting my shots pretty much where I wanted them. Any time you change to a different gun, especially with a different trigger setup, it's going to take some getting use to and as I'm sure you know that's a training issue, not a gun issue.
Beren
Moderator Emeritus
The trigger pull on the 1086 wasn't really all that long, to be honest, and it didn't feel heavy. Definitely the best double-action I've experienced of any pistol. (Revolvers are a different story..)
Everything has been quite well stated already......except for Pat saying something about his reloading setup in his garage. You must have one HECK of a setup. I would love to see the pictures of your Ammoload's and Camden presses, Oehler model 83's and 43's, as well as the hundreds of thoudands of bullets that line your humble garage. I am sure that you could astound us all!!! Maybe I should come and visit you so you can teach me about marketing, physics, and internal/ external ballistics.
Also, if you want verifiable proof about statistics, call up ANY pistol maufacturer and ask, they will tell you. I know, I've made the calls myself.
You personally do not HAVE to like the 10mm, but there is no need for you to push so hard for its demise. You will have little effect on the outcome one way or the other. I on the other hand will have a positive effect on this caliber as well as any caliber that I choose to have my company load ammunition for...even your .357 sig (which I am working on right now).
-Mike
Also, if you want verifiable proof about statistics, call up ANY pistol maufacturer and ask, they will tell you. I know, I've made the calls myself.
You personally do not HAVE to like the 10mm, but there is no need for you to push so hard for its demise. You will have little effect on the outcome one way or the other. I on the other hand will have a positive effect on this caliber as well as any caliber that I choose to have my company load ammunition for...even your .357 sig (which I am working on right now).
-Mike
MCNETT
My garage is more humble than that. Its 2 dillion 550's set up with about a dozen sets of dies set up in tool heads. About 20000 bullets and more powder and primers than I dare say. But as humber as my set up is. Federal, Remington and Winchester probably make your set up look like my reloading set up.
I am not pushing for the 10mm's death. I am just facing reality. As for the 357 sig, I am moving away from it. WIth the advent of Winchesters +p+ 127 grain Ranger load at 1250 there is not much reason for me to load up 125 grain 357 sig rangers at just 100 fps more. If you reload the 357 sig you will be able to get velocities in the 1450 range. However are you using flash resistant powders like the big boys. Are you sealing your primers and case mouth. Sabers will not work in the 357 sig. The only premium bullet you will have easy access to is the 125 grain gold dot. Why should I but it from you at a little more speed when I can have a company with a estabilshed reputation load it for me.
Pat
My garage is more humble than that. Its 2 dillion 550's set up with about a dozen sets of dies set up in tool heads. About 20000 bullets and more powder and primers than I dare say. But as humber as my set up is. Federal, Remington and Winchester probably make your set up look like my reloading set up.
I am not pushing for the 10mm's death. I am just facing reality. As for the 357 sig, I am moving away from it. WIth the advent of Winchesters +p+ 127 grain Ranger load at 1250 there is not much reason for me to load up 125 grain 357 sig rangers at just 100 fps more. If you reload the 357 sig you will be able to get velocities in the 1450 range. However are you using flash resistant powders like the big boys. Are you sealing your primers and case mouth. Sabers will not work in the 357 sig. The only premium bullet you will have easy access to is the 125 grain gold dot. Why should I but it from you at a little more speed when I can have a company with a estabilshed reputation load it for me.
Pat
I am using a VERY low flash powder in ALL loads. Yes, Remington and Winchester will make my company look small, but we use the same quality of equipment and can put out ammunition that is the same if not better quality and reliability. The difference is in the speed and accuracy that we can get vs. any other ammunition. It is unparalleled. We will do the same for the .357sig round.
Also, we have access to all of the bullets out there. We have to honor the 'LE only" factor on bonded Golden Sabres and Ranger bullets, but anything else is obtainable. My money is green and we manufacture ammunition, this is all any of the bullet makers (Hornady, Win, Fed, Speer, Rem, etc) need to know.
-Mike
Also, we have access to all of the bullets out there. We have to honor the 'LE only" factor on bonded Golden Sabres and Ranger bullets, but anything else is obtainable. My money is green and we manufacture ammunition, this is all any of the bullet makers (Hornady, Win, Fed, Speer, Rem, etc) need to know.
-Mike
You did not say if you use a waterproof seal on the primer pockets and bullets. I hope you do fine buisness wise. I am sure you will. But I doubt you will be a serious threat to any of the big boys. I also seriously doubt you can load to the same standards set up by the big boys. Others have tried and failed. Corbons Quality Control is not great. Triton sucked and thats part of why they are no longer in buisness. I hope you can make a quality product. But I will not be betting my life on your ammo anytime soon. No offense. I just don't trust small up shoot companies. After you establish a track record then I might consider it. But I like Ranger bullets and you can't load them.
Pat
Pat
gunfan
Member
Go get 'em, Mike!
What .355 Sig (A.K.A. Pat) fails to realize is that Mike McNett has just as good of a standard of quality control as the "big boys" if not better!
As this is Mike's only line of ammunition, he has invested his engineerring skills, as well as his entire future, into this venture! Rest assured that he has made more than a "half-hearted" effort in producing this ammunition. He has put his life into this cartridge!
His is NOT a quixotic venture, but a masterfully studied and calculated effort!
God bless you, Mike Mc Nett! May the Almighty provide you with many years of loading success, and LOTS of profit!
Scott
What .355 Sig (A.K.A. Pat) fails to realize is that Mike McNett has just as good of a standard of quality control as the "big boys" if not better!
As this is Mike's only line of ammunition, he has invested his engineerring skills, as well as his entire future, into this venture! Rest assured that he has made more than a "half-hearted" effort in producing this ammunition. He has put his life into this cartridge!
His is NOT a quixotic venture, but a masterfully studied and calculated effort!
God bless you, Mike Mc Nett! May the Almighty provide you with many years of loading success, and LOTS of profit!
Scott
What I do realize is that he has not answered a simple question on sealing primers and the case mouth with a water proof seal. What I do realize is he has not had near the experience making ammo the big boys have. What I do realize is that his equipment for loading can't compare to the big boys.
Pat
Pat
Sean Smith
Member
- Joined
- Dec 28, 2002
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- 4,925
And some have tried and succeeded. Pro Load comes to mind here, a smaller company that alot of people favor because they are perceived to be better than the "big boys" and produce a more consistent product.
Dannyboy
Member
Since when does bigger mean better?
Since when is LE use a sign of a cartridge's worthiness?
Since when is LE use a sign of a cartridge's worthiness?
Since when does bigger mean better?
Since when is LE use a sign of a cartridge's worthiness?
End
Since the begining of time. If they did not make a good product they would not have got big. If the round was not desent it would not be used by leo's.
Pat
Since when is LE use a sign of a cartridge's worthiness?
End
Since the begining of time. If they did not make a good product they would not have got big. If the round was not desent it would not be used by leo's.
Pat
MikeD29
Member
I do not know why you guys even bother arguing with Pat, I mean, this is the guy who posted a serious response in the Ask A Navy SEAL thread, all because the 10mm was mentioned. Even his humor is blinded when the 10 is involved.
Obviously the bigger guys are better..Pat said so.
Hey Pat, why don't you send the Navy SEAL a question about wheter or not the primers are sealed.
Obviously the bigger guys are better..Pat said so.
Hey Pat, why don't you send the Navy SEAL a question about wheter or not the primers are sealed.
Dannyboy
Member
Bigger does not always mean better. As for LE use, I guess the .45 must be dying, as well. I mean, it doesn't see much LE use these days. Key word there: MUCH.
At this point in time, the customer has the option of whether the primers are sealed or not. Bigger is not better. Or we would all be buying only one brand of everything! Win and Rem are 150+years old, this is the real reason why they are so big, not because they are above what DoubleTap, Proload, or any other smaller company in terms of quality.
-Mike
-Mike
Bigger does not always mean better. As for LE use, I guess the .45 must be dying, as well. I mean, it doesn't see much LE use these days. Key word there: MUCH.
END
Actually you need to get your facts correct. The 45 is used quite a bit by leo's and its growing a bit. Nearly half the agencies in my state use 45 acp's. The largest agency issues Glock 21's in 45 acp. It is third place overall to the 9mm and 40sw. But it is used a lot and its growing.
I have a wait and see on double taps ammo. Its too new to know how the product will be backed up. For myself I will stick with the big guys. I wish you luck.
Pat
END
Actually you need to get your facts correct. The 45 is used quite a bit by leo's and its growing a bit. Nearly half the agencies in my state use 45 acp's. The largest agency issues Glock 21's in 45 acp. It is third place overall to the 9mm and 40sw. But it is used a lot and its growing.
I have a wait and see on double taps ammo. Its too new to know how the product will be backed up. For myself I will stick with the big guys. I wish you luck.
Pat
Sigfan-half the reason people reload is because they can shoot more per dollar spent on components. The other half is because we can assemble more accurate ammunition than the big boys do. And that has been a fact for a long time.
I can't personally speak for the way others reload their ammo here because I have not pulled their ammo apart, but I can tell you that my reloads for my use ARE more accurate than what the factories put out. I have taken major brand ammo from several companies and torn it apart and seen the variations with my eyes and tools-rifle or pistol, and I take the time to make mine as accurate as I can.
The big boys are out there to make a profit and do make reasonably accurate ammo, and thats fine for a lot of people. It's just not good enough for all of us.
Don't know MCNETT and never used his ammo, but I can see where a determined person who was out to make a difference could certainly do so.
Remember people like Lee Jurras and Super Vel ammo? They made enough of a difference to make the big boys change their ways!
I can't personally speak for the way others reload their ammo here because I have not pulled their ammo apart, but I can tell you that my reloads for my use ARE more accurate than what the factories put out. I have taken major brand ammo from several companies and torn it apart and seen the variations with my eyes and tools-rifle or pistol, and I take the time to make mine as accurate as I can.
The big boys are out there to make a profit and do make reasonably accurate ammo, and thats fine for a lot of people. It's just not good enough for all of us.
Don't know MCNETT and never used his ammo, but I can see where a determined person who was out to make a difference could certainly do so.
Remember people like Lee Jurras and Super Vel ammo? They made enough of a difference to make the big boys change their ways!
gunfan
Member
It has been said that...
History repeats itself... repeats itself... repeats itself...
History repeats itself... repeats itself... repeats itself...
gunfan
Member
If you'd care to know...
Mike McNett has reported the between September 2003 and January of 2004, tha he has produced, (and sold) over 100,000 rounds of Double Tap 10mm Automatic ammunition.
I am truly confused. How can this happen to a "dying" cartridge? I would certainly welcome clarification concerning this issue.
Scott
Mike McNett has reported the between September 2003 and January of 2004, tha he has produced, (and sold) over 100,000 rounds of Double Tap 10mm Automatic ammunition.
I am truly confused. How can this happen to a "dying" cartridge? I would certainly welcome clarification concerning this issue.
Scott
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