165 gr. .40 vs. 124 gr. +P 9mm?

Status
Not open for further replies.
B

BADUNAME4

Member
Joined
Jan 20, 2005
Messages
450
Is there any real-world difference, really, between a 165 gr. .40 and a 124 gr. +P 9mm, let's say in a Gold Dot?
Just trying to rationalize streamlining calibers. I guess a 230 gr. .45 is the ultimate answer to the question, but that's another thread.
 
Of course the .40 will hit harder, leave a bigger hole and penetrate a bit further. Having said that, the 9mm will do the job if you do yours.

By the way, you should seriously consider the 147 gr. 9mm. It has slightly better penetration and similar expansion characteristics if you get it in the right bullet (like the Federal HST.)
 
Ho hum.... nother debate starter....

Double Tap Ammo offeringss ALL Bullets Speer Gold Dots
.45 ACP ------- .40 S&W ---- 9mm Luger +P -

185 gr 155 gr. 115 gr.
1225 fps 1,275 FPS 1,415 FPS
616 ft lbs 560 ft. lbs 511 ft. lbs
200 gr. 165 gr. 124 gr.
1125 FPS 1,200 FPS 1,310 FPS
562 Ft lbs 528 fl lbs 473 ft lbs
230 gr. 180 gr. 147 gr.
1,010 FPS 1,100 FPS 1,130 FPS
521 FPS 484 ft lbs 421 ft lbs

So with a well placed shot is the BG
going to know the difference?

Randall
 
Considering that we have not heard anyone taking 33 124 grain +P hollowpoints, or even 10 hits with that load, I honestly don't see why it has to be either or.

Whichever you shoot straighter with.

The 165 has a good reputation as well.
 
speaking balistic wise, with the ammo that you stated.

165gr Speer Gold dot
1205fps
485ft.lbs

124gr Speer gold dot +p
1220fps
410ft.lbs

this info is from "Shooters Bible", 97th edition.
 
Last edited:
Is this thread a joke? They're both just handgun rounds and will about half the time if you're lucky.
 
Well, I guess it boils down to what affords you the most "warm 'n fuzzy" feeling.
For me, I suppose there's a bias towards the 165gr .40 S&W considering it is a heavier slug of a larger caliber that's hauling off at around the same velocity. However, does there really exist a "real world" difference if the exact same assailant were plugged in the exact same spot at the exact same time under the exact same circumstances in some parallel reality? If
"real world" means "noticeable", then I must say that I doubt it... even if the .40 S&W does possess the "warm 'n fuzzy" edge in my book.

Whatever you feel most confident in is likely your best choice. If this confidence buys you a sense of security, then I suppose that's the true decisive factor you're seaching for.
 
Is there any real-world difference, really, between a 165 gr. .40 and a 124 gr. +P 9mm, let's say in a Gold Dot?
Just trying to rationalize streamlining calibers. I guess a 230 gr. .45 is the ultimate answer to the question, but that's another thread.
Click to expand...
Keep in mind that the 40S&W is what came from the "FBI 10mm". Here is what the FBI said:

Direct quote from the FBI evaluation of the 10mm.
Page 9 of the
FBI 10mm Notes
SSA Urey W. Patrick, Firearms Training Unit
FBI Academy, Quantico, VA


"Are you saying the 9mm is no good?

* No. We are saying it is as good as a .38 Special, which has served us for a long time. It has severe limitations, which we are not willing to accept. It is woefully inadequate for shooting at people in cars, for example, and over half of our shootings involve vehicles. It is a marginally adequate wounding agent. We have a number of 9mm shootings over the past couple of years, and if you define a good shooting as one in which the subject stops whatever he was doing when he gets shot, we have yet to have a good one, and we are hitting our adversaries multiple times. We have shot half a dozen dogs in the past year and have not killed one yet, although we have run up a significant veterinary bill. The 9mm with proper ammunition is not a bad round. It is just nowhere near as effective as the 10mm and .45 offerings, and the disparity between it and the larger calibers has remained a constant throughout all the testing we have done over the past two years."

They were using 124Gr slugs in the 9mm.
 
Go With Your Recoil Limit

AIR,LAND,SEA,

For me, the real question is recoil and gun size.

I like the 9m.m. as it has less recoil, so a smaller gun can be carried and used, like the GLOCK 19 or WALTHER P99.
In a lightweight gun, a 100 rounds of .40 S&W is a lot of work.

In a full size pistol like the BERETTA 96, I go with the 155 grain JHP. It has a power and effective range advantage over the 9m.m. I prefer the BERETTA 96/155 grain combination over anything else including the .45 ACP.

About the FBI report. Remember, it was written to excuse all the mistakes the FBI made during the MIAMI MASSACRE.
For instance, one agent dropped his gun and had to WATCH THE GUNFIGHT. Only one agent had a semi-auto, a 9m.m. The rest had .38 Special revolvers.
They knew the bad guys had AT LEAST ONE MINI-14 WITH THEM. So with 8 agents in 4 vehicles, they had only one shotgun.

Also, the FBI report condems the 9m.m. for lack of penetration. The .357 magnum penetrates less, but no one condems it for lack of power.


Jim
 
Also, the FBI report condems the 9m.m. for lack of penetration. The .357 magnum penetrates less, but no one condems it for lack of power.
Click to expand...

Huh? The .357 has much greater power and penetration than the 9mm, which is one of the reasons the .357 Sig was developed.

Having said that I'd rather have a 147 gr. +P HST than a 125 gr. .357 Sig. I don't generally shoot through car doors so I'm more interested in penetration into bad guys.
 
If the .357 magnum load in question is a relatively warm 125 grain JHP such as Remington's SJHP, I can see the near certain fragmentation reducing penetration as the projectile's sectional density decreases.
Many praise the fragmentation and consider it an attribute when deep penetration isn't necessarily desired, such as urban HD... assuming the slug burrows into the soft flesh of an assailant.
I would imagine this same 125gr .357 magnum slug would be a deep diggin' terror if it missed it's mark and plowed through building material instead.

However, I'm fairly confident the typical 158 grain JHP would offer deep penetration indeed. IIRC, the average difference between these two loads in identical ballistic media is some 6" additional penetration.
 
I don't think the .357 Sig gets more penetration than the 9x19mm in similiar bullet weights, because the extra speed increases resistance.

I too would much rather have a 147+P HST than any currently available .357 Sig.
 
You cannot go wrong with either load. I prefer the 124gr +p because you generally have more capacity with 9mm.
 
Depending upon the gun (CZ 40B or SIG P226) I like both loads. I carry Doubletaps 165gr gold dot in my CZ and their 124gr +p 9mm in my SIG. I'm pretty sure both will do the job if called upon.

When it comes down to comparing foot lbs of energy to foot lbs of energy both loads are in the same ball park. The .40 edges the 9mm by ~ 20% in raw horsepower. If you dig deeper and look at the efficacy of each rounds you will notice a big difference

Efficacy is defined as energy in foot pounds multiplied by projectile cross-sectional area in square inches (energy x area). Lets look at the .40 first. (ALL fps and ft/lbs taken from the doubletap website!)

1240fps
563 ft/lbs
Efficacy of 71
Sectional density of .146
Bullet diameter (inches) .402

Now the 9mm
1310fps
472 ft/lbs
Efficacy of 47
Sectional density of .14
Bullet diameter (inches) .355

I thought I would toss this in for comparison purposes!
.45acp 230 gr gold dot
1010fps
521 ft/lbs
Efficacy of 83
Sectional density of .162
Bullet diameter (inches) .451

When efficacy is taken into account the .40 is the clear winner (71 vs 47)...a 50% better performance! That being said I still (occasionally) carry my SIG 226 loaded with 124gr gold dots and do not feel under gunned:)
 
Actually the 9mm load that the FBI blamed for their own failure was the 115 gr. Winchester Silvertip.
Click to expand...

WOW! I would never have guessed it was a silvertip, since it generally gets pretty good reviews as a stopper!
 
.357 Is Mild Penetrator

The 125 grain JHP .357 magnum laod made by REMINGTON is the most battle proven and effective load in the .357 magnum. It also penetrates about 7 to 8 inches in gelatin.

Virtually every 9m.m., .40 caliber and .45ACP will out penetrate it, but few have come close to the success the 125 grain load has had.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Exactly who defined ammo EFFICACY and what is it based on? Using this system, the .44 magnum would be very, very effective. Not so. Most soft point and many hollow point loads will overpenetrate and are very hard to control and almost impossible to shoot rapidly.
The .357 magnum 125 grain JHP and .45ACP 230 grain HYDRO-SHOK would have a MUCH LOWER EFFICACY rating and ARE BOTH PROVEN LOADS with long street histories.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

The FBI's report never delves into their lack of success and the much greater success other law enforcement agencies had with the 9m.m.
NOTE that the heavy bullet loads they were pushing were widely adopted and then slowly dropped by law enforcement.
In 9m.m., it is the 115 and 124 grain +P loads that are widely used and proven.
------------------------------------------------------------------------

Also, the .357 SIG was not designed to increase penetration. The 9m.m. using non expanding loads is a deep penetrator. The .357 SIG is supposed to duplicate the combination of rapid expansion offered by the .357 magnum even when used against close targets.
It is a interesting point that the .357 SIG has been very successful with law enforcement using the 125 grain bullet, but mostly ignores the heavier rounds.

Jim
 
It is a interesting point that the .357 SIG has been very successful with law enforcement using the 125 grain bullet, but mostly ignores the heavier rounds.
Click to expand...

Because the short throat can't handle heavier bullets and it would not get close to .357 numbers with them.
 
The 125 grain JHP .357 magnum laod made by REMINGTON is the most battle proven and effective load in the .357 magnum. It also penetrates about 7 to 8 inches in gelatin.
Click to expand...

One of the things that came out of the extensive Federal testing and research was the desire for a round that would penetrate 10 to 12 inches.

I have no doubt that most of the time the lighter 125 gr. bullet will penetrate enough. Also, you have to be concerned with overpenetration. Having said that, I'd still like the extra penetration of the heavier load for those few instances when it would make the difference.

Exactly who defined ammo EFFICACY and what is it based on? Using this system, the .44 magnum would be very, very effective. Not so. Most soft point and many hollow point loads will overpenetrate and are very hard to control and almost impossible to shoot rapidly.
Click to expand...

Which is why the 10mm never got adopted. But the 147 gr. 9mm is not hard to control.
 
Gold Dot Did Not Make The .357 A Hit

WNYCOLLECTOR,

The bullet that made the .357 magnum was the REMINGTON Semi Jacketed Hollow Point. The .357 magnum was long proven when the first GOLD DOT was introduced.

It is a tremendous fightstopper. LOUD and full of muzzle blast, it is effective none the less. I hated qualifying with it, since we had to shoot a 60 round course at least twice.

Jim
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Similar threads

B
  • Locked
124 gr. vs. 124 gr. +P?
Replies
24
Views
994
DENALI
D
Lennyjoe
  • Locked
Black Hills 124 gr +P
Replies
4
Views
561
Bren
B
1
  • Locked
Excellent Self Defense Loads From Major Manufactures
2
Replies
38
Views
3K
JShirley
JShirley
O
  • Locked
115 gr. vs. 124 gr. +P 9mm Ammo
Replies
22
Views
3K
C0untZer0
C0untZer0
.455_Hunter
  • Locked
165 gr. JHP for 3" 1911 in .45 ACP? 230 gr. Gold Dot SB Question
Replies
8
Views
739
Bobo
B
Back
Top