1911 frame from house fire......

[cottonmouth]

I have a Colt Defender slide and all the other parts less the frame. A friend gave me an old military full sized frame that came out of a house fire. It has a few pitts here and there but all the Defender parts fit it, all I had to change was the ejector, I did use another grip safety and main spring housing. I have put 75-100 rounds through it since I put it toghter. I know that the barrel and barrel link/magazine release pin take most of the pressure. Just wondering if anyone else has ever done this. I don't plan to shoot it much, may make it my truck gun.

J.B.

 

[Old Fuff]

I believe the Colt Defender is built on a modified Commander platform, which is different the the full-sized 1911A1 .45 pistol.

While you can mount the slide and barrel on your USGI frame, you will end up with a shorter recoil spring tunnel, and that could cause some serious problems. A gunsmith with the right tooling could make the tunnel deeper in your frame, but finding such a 'smith in your area might be difficult.

 

[cottonmouth]

I did notice the full sized frame has a little diffrence in the tunnel but the pistol shoots and functions fine, darn good. What serious problems could I expect if I keep shooting this mixed breed? I know it is a little on the soft side due to the heat but I only plan to shoot a mild 200 grain LRN out of it.

J.B.

 

[Jim Watson]

I think for every one of us - me included - who points out that the short guns have shorter rails and recoil spring abutment than a G.M. so as to increase slide travel, there is somebody who gets a Commander, OACP, or Defender upper to work on a G.M. lower. And somebody who can't, of course.

So if it shoots, it shoots.

I would change the recoil springs pretty regularly and use the Tuner Type firing pin stop. Use the EGW square bottomed part and round the lower rear corner just enough to not gouge the face of the hammer. This will increase the resistance to slide opening by the mainspring and supplement the recoil spring.

 

[Old Fuff]

What serious problems could I expect if I keep shooting this mixed breed?

Well for one thing you are way overstressing the recoil springs, and for another if the fully compressed spring is longer then the tunnel it will act like a battering ram, and something will give.

The space in a Defender is on the tight side in the first place, and you just shortened it further. The Commander slide is about 1.250" longer, and they increased the recoil spring tunnel in the frame to make that work.

 

[cottonmouth]

I see, so it would be a good idea for me to have the tunnel cut down or shortened. There is a gunsmith not far from home that can fix her up I bet. Thanks.

J.B.

 

[Jim Watson]

Gotta disagree with Fuff on this one.
The recoil spring will be compressed to the length of the tunnel in the slide, regardless of the frame dimensions. The longer frame rails of the G.M. will just reduce slide travel which can affect ejection and feeding. Yours seems not to do that, or not enough to keep it from functioning. They will not cause the spring(s) to compress any more than in the gun the slide came off of... assuming the spring set is correct for that slide.

 

[Old Fuff]

Gee, if I'm wrong, why did Colt set the frame abutment/rails back when they designed the Commander? They could have just cut 3/4" off the front of the slide, mounted it on a standard Government Model frame, and been good to go.

Not quite...

Since the recoil spring extends to the front of the slide (less the thickness of the front of the recoil spring plug) the effective distance the recoil spring system can work is from the front of the recoil spring guide's flang (which rests against the frame abutment) to the front of the recoil spring plug.

If you go from a Commander platform to a Government Model the recoil spring guide is positioned further forward, and if the front of the slide remains the same the effective length of the recoil spring tunnel is shortened.

The length of the recoil spring tunnel does not reach from the back to front of the slide, but from the abutment in the frame to the front of the slide (less the thicknes of the recoil spring guide flange and the plug or cap at the front.

Right?

Now if the springs in a Defender are designed to work in combination with a Commander frame, and instead you substitute a Government Model frame those springs are going to be over compressed, and you may even get coil bind if the spring is compressed to the point of being solid.

Then there is the matter of higher slide velocity, but it's past my bedtime so I'll take that up another time.

 

[cottonmouth]

house fire gun

Now look what I have started.

J.B.

 

[critter]

I got a 1911 made by Ithica in 1944 from my uncle's burned house. It was loaded with a full mag plus one in the spout when it burned. They all cooked off!

I replaced the barrel, link, firing pin, all springs, mag, barrel bushing-and it went to work! I shot it first from behind a BIG oak tree~!

I did not shoot it much (truck gun) as it began to batter due to the softness of the untempered parts.

Traded it to a 'collector' type who wanted it quite badly.

 

[krs]

Sorry old fluff, but you're wrong.

If you were right then it would not be possible to remove the slide with barrel and spring with spring guide as a working assembly.

The two frames, commander and government model are very nearly identical, commander's rails being a little shorter at the front end to allow full rearward motion of the slide and a defender upper assembly will work on either so long as the disconnector can be uncovered when the slide is rearward.

there might be a need to adjust recoil spring length.........some but that ain't such a big deal, now is it?

 

[CSA 357]

Cotton, Shoot The Hell Out Of It Then Get Back With Us And Let Us Know How It Worked Out:d

 

[coyotehitman]

I would be a little concerned about the heat treatment being ruined.

 

[Jim Watson]

I don't, not with the mild loads he cites. 1911 receivers are pretty soft anyhow, it is the slides that are heat treated harder.

Fuff: The recoil spring column does not extend back into the frame (unless you have a Detonics). No matter where the frame abutment is, the recoil spring is compressed between the plug/bushing and the guide flange as the slide stops in full recoil against it where it is backed up against the frame. The recoil spring assembly must fit inside the slide tunnel no matter what. If he has the right spring it will do just that even in the G.M. frame.

The potential problem is that the slide will not travel as far to the rear and possibly compromise ejection and feeding. The O.P. does not report any such problems. Sometimes they work, sometimes they don't, which is why Colt reengineered the setup for the Commander, carried it over to the OACP, and uses a Seecamp pattern dual spring for the Defender.

It is quite feasible to saw 3/4" off a G.M. slide and get a setup that works. That was done on a custom basis before Colt came out with the Combat Commander. If you use a standard spring short enough to not compress solid, it will have a rather short service life, kind of like the Kimber and other 4.0" guns out there. That can be dealt with if you know how. A Glock flatwire recoil spring on a skinny FLGR works very well.

 

[spyder1911]

Yeah if the frame was heat treated then the heat treat was definitely ruined by the house fire. This means that the metal will be softer, not stand up to stress as well and cause other problems.

NOTE- I am not a firearms or 1911 expert, I have no clue if the frame is HTed or how much stress it takes. My experience through HT has been with knives not guns.

 

[Jim Watson]

There was a shop here that did a surprisingly steady business salvaging guns from house fires. The rule of thumb was that if a gun's springs had not been annealed and collapsed, that the structural parts' heat treatment had not been dangerously tempered. Their stack of unsalvageable stuff was not very large but it was ugly. A "few pits" would not begin to describe the damage done by heat, fumes, and water.