223 on deer?

[mljdeckard]

I have a .30 carbine with which my dad once killed two deer in the same day. I won't hunt deer with it.

Why take the chance? I don't want to make an animal suffer to save a little recoil. Use enough gun.

 

[mljdeckard]

If it is ALL about shot placement, we could just use .22s and shoot them in the eye, right?

 

[fanchisimo]

If it is ALL about shot placement, we could just use .22s and shoot them in the eye, right?

I think shot placement is the single most important thing of them all. If you put a 17 in the eye (shouldn't even be attempted), the deer will die, but if you put a .30-06 in a non-vital area, the deer won't die as quick, if at all. Sure if you use something like a .50 BMG, virtually any where it hits, the deer will die. I think that the rule of thumb should be if there was only one thing to perfect, it should be placement because if you don't have that, your chance for a kill is severely diminished.

 

[mljdeckard]

All I'm saying is, if it were all about shot placement, no one would ever have a need to use anything more than the bare minimum cartridge.

 

[meanmrmustard]

223s and other small caliber or low energy rounds don't go hunting with me, that is like trophy bass fishing with 2lbs test line.

I leave that 223/45ACP/30 carbine hunting to people who like tracking deer for hours in the dark. I use suitable calibers and quality bullets and in 20+ years of hunting I have never had to track a deer that I shot, all dead within a few feet of where I hit them.

Bad analogy, as you aren't likely to use a salt water rod for pan fishing. I assume.

Also, speculation. In my 20+ years of hunting, I've never night tracked a deer .223-shot. Only deer I've wounded that required recovery hours later were 30-30s, and only once. You assume that folks who use the above mentioned three calibers wound and those using them enjoy it. I assure you, you are not only mistaken, but I'll advised.

 

[meanmrmustard]

All I'm saying is, if it were all about shot placement, no one would ever have a need to use anything more than the bare minimum cartridge.

Once again, dead is dead. There is no bare minimum, as one could hunt with a .17 if legal, able, and proficient if so desired.

When observed meat destruction is ridiculously excessive, I tend to think "too much gun", rather than not enough.

There is no such thing as overkill. There is no such thing as under kill either. Dead is dead is dead.

 

[meanmrmustard]

If it is ALL about shot placement, we could just use .22s and shoot them in the eye, right?

You're grasping here.

If the bullet diameter scares you, then why would you diminish your chances of a kill by aiming at a spot the size of a quarter, when a deers lungs encompass a pie plate? You cannot hit a pie plate, but you can a quarter?

From rereading the OP, I think this thread was intent on starting arguments.

 

[Kachok]

You assume that folks who use the above mentioned three calibers wound and those using them enjoy it.

Never said that, you made that one up not me. I have seen several deer shot with 223 all of them required tracking, even these dog sized Florida deer. Not impressed AT ALL, I'll stick to my 6.5x55, 308, 30-06, 7mm-08 and 270 WSM thanks.

 

[meanmrmustard]

Never said that, you made that one up not me. I have seen several deer shot with 223 all of them required tracking, even these dog sized Florida deer. Not impressed AT ALL, I'll stick to my 6.5x55, 308, 30-06, 7mm-08 and 270 WSM thanks.

Not made up, deducted from the statement: "...for folks who like to track deer for hours in the dark". That is a blatant assumption, or rather a guess, as to whether hunters purposely shoot animals in hopes of tracking them. Or am I wrong, and your statement implies that the three calibers in your post are immediately failures, as are those who use them? Sure sounds like a person using .223/45/.30 CAR likes to wound deer for the hell of it, or the enjoyment of wounding, as per your statement. Ive shot dozens of large, healthy animals with .223 and no tracking required. Like I said, ill advised.

Continue with what works for you. While doing so, I implore you to teach the gentlehunters in your clan who employ the .223 rem to practice their shooting skillset. I've no qualms taking large, Northern MO deer with the .223 over the last two decades, and I'm not that great a shot. The round isnt the problem. Missing or wounding can be done just as easily with any that you listed in your deer battery.

 

[Kachok]

The round isnt the problem. Missing or wounding can be done just as easily with any that you listed in your deer battery.

Sure, my cousin blew a deer's leg off with a 30-06 and they never found it even after tracking for a mile and a half (true story). You cannot fix bad shooting with any caliber, but I have absolute confidence that if I put one of my Ballistic tip/SST/Serria Game King handloads through a deer's boiler room he is going nowhere but where gravity takes him. I have no such confidence in 45s/223/30 carbines because I have never once seen them stop a deer cold like that much less every time.

 

[aka108]

30-30 for Whitetail and 308 or 30-06 for Mule Deer. These old standbys will be around after all the gunwriters you gotta haves are long forgotten about. Now for slaughtering cattle the 22lr will do just fine but there you are doing a head shot from 3 inches away.

 

[DAP90]

Actually the 223 is legal in almost all states where rifles are legal. Most of the states that do not allow 223 are shotgun only and ban all rifles.

For deer sized game it is perfecly adequte as long as bullets designed for big game are used. Most laws prohibiting .22 centerfires were written long before the 223 was developed to ban rounds such as the 22 Hornet. Some states have not kept their laws up to date with modern technology. Some are correcting that, and are re-writing their laws to legalize the 223.

223 isn’t legal in Colorado; probably because of the elk. 243 is the minimum here for deer and elk. I’d guess the DOW doesn’t want anyone taking shots at elk while deer hunting with a 223 and just decided to make sure nobody had the opportunity by banning it.

223 is legal in Nebraska where my FIL lives. He occasionally uses a 223 on deer. His comment typically is the 223 just doesn’t knock them down like his 45-70. I’ve had that conversation with him a dozen times and it never fails to amuse me.

I might be inclined to say that most people would be better off with a 223 than a magnum. At least they won’t be flinching and shooting with their eyes close in anticipation of the recoil.

That said there are not a lot of good reasons to choose either extreme when there are so many other inexpensive and commonly available alternatives.

 

[sansone]

I am somewhat amused by people saying that shot placement is the most important....as if....those using larger cartridges aren't concerned at all about shot placement? Shot placement is important, but there actually IS more to it than shot placement.

nobody is saying hunters using larger calibers don't care about shot placement, just the 223 makes placement more critical for quick kill

 

[LoonWulf]

I was going to leave this one alone, but i have to weigh in on the side of common sense and caution. The .223 is IMO, effective, but VERY limited. Ive killed a great many deer and goats with the round, and one shot drops are not unusual but also not common.

Again IMO, you have two choices in loads and placement. You can use the haviest varmint/small game bullets (which are generally a bit tougher then thier lighter counterparts), and be VERY selective of your shots, since penetration will also be very limited. Personally thats the option i use, broad side, standing double lung or heart.

The other option are the much tougher bullets like the x or sirroco. both penetrate well, but you dont get the trauma of the softer bullets. You still need to be able to put the round thru the vitals, but your presentation and angles can be a little worse. My experiance with these bullets are that they dont generally drop anything on the shot, and usually the animals are best treated as arrow hit and given some time to expire.

I have also used a .22LR to very good affect on both body and head shots while doing control work, both at night and durring the day, another person im familiar with but never seen hunt swears by the .17 with FMJs for the same type of work. Again, know your tool, use it well (and within its limits), and you will succede.....on the other hand a little insurance never hurts.

 

[mshootnit]

In an attempt to keep the thread open I would like to add a somewhat new idea. And that is that the advent of the new solid bullets may be a game changer for 223. The ttsx, gmx, and e tip are all in this category. The biggest issues with 223 include fragmentation and lack of penetration. This was due to high velocity, and traditional bullet construction. Now we have tough bullets that will penetrate deeply , open to around 50 cal diameter, and be generally more predictable. Accuracy is reported to be excellent. I recently posed the question regarding an all around utility ar rifle. I plan on going with a 20" upper and trying some of these.

 

[meanmrmustard]

223 is legal in Nebraska where my FIL lives. He occasionally uses a 223 on deer. His comment typically is the 223 just doesn’t knock them down like his 45-70. I’ve had that conversation with him a dozen times and it never fails to me.

Deer don't get knocked down, they fall. The energy it would take to knock the deer down would also knock you down in recoil energy. See Isaac Newton.

Fast, lighter weight bullets work well, but I'll agree that slow heavy ones do too.

 

[scythefwd]

Count VA as a state with a .24 minimum caliber. It does allow rifles.

 

[DAP90]

Deer don't get knocked down, they fall. The energy it would take to knock the deer down would also knock you down in recoil energy. See Isaac Newton.

I'm well aware of that.

I'm also aware you knew what I meant, or rather what my FIL meant, by the statement.

 

[Jason_W]

Maine actually allows the .22 Mag for deer. I can't imagine anyone actually trying it, though.

 

[R H Clark]

Jason,My dad survived the depression by killing deer with a 22 LR. He killed hundreds of them and only a few went very far.

A 22 mag would not be my first choice but I could kill a deer with every shot from one.I would simply pick my shots with it as I would a bow.

 

[Kachok]

On a head or shine shot sure a 22LR will work wounders, try shooting them throught the boiler room and your results will be less then impressive. A friend of mine tried that when he was young and dumb, several hours later they finnaly recoverd a deer with 13 bullet holes in it!! Not something I ever care to do. I would certainly use a 223 in a survival situation because it can and will kill a deer with the right bullets, but given the option of using a cartrage designed for the task at hand the choice is clear to me.
I see absolutly no advantage in using such a small bullet, there are plenty of ultra low recoil cartrages that do a MUCH better job (243, 257 Roberts, 6.5x55, 7x57), they do not need premium bonded bullets to acheive adaquate penatration so ammo cost is in fact less then the tiny gun.

 

[Picher]

Shot placement is very important, more important than cartridge used. That said, the smaller the energy of a cartridge, the smaller the deer kill zone, especially from odd angles. I consider the .223 Rem an adequate cartridge, provided the shooter is more experienced than a beginning hunter.

Combine a relatively low-powered cartridge and a new hunter and it's a recipe for wounded game that may get away and die slowly. The new hunter should be very well instructed and supervised to put the bullet where it's needed for a quick kill. It can ruin a person's desire to hunt if they have to find a wounded deer and dispatch it. It's never fun for me to help others find their wounded deer.

 

[lefteyedom]

Jason,My dad survived the depression by killing deer with a 22 LR. He killed hundreds of them and only a few went very far.

My Dad's family, like many Mississippian families during the depression feed themselves with 22 single shot rifles. Mostly small game rabbit, squirrel, and other critters that mossy oak brand wearing folks wont eat today.

The ban on 22 caliber rifles for deer down South was a anti-poaching law. 22 WRM with a flashlight taped to the barrel was considered an ideal midnight deer gun.


That a 223 center fire cartridge is able to kill a deer is not in question. The question is "is the hunter able to exercises good judgement when using one". Sadly good judgement is often in short supply.

 

[MCgunner]

Man up and get a .30 caliber. It ain't gonna hurt ya.

I once bought (still have it, still shoots) a German 88 Commission rifle in 7.92x57S, rechambered for use by Hitler youth and old farts in the last gasps of the third reich. I paid the grand sum of $27.50 for the rifle and bought 400 rounds of milsurp from Israeli arsenals with it which about 1 out of 4 misfired, old ammo.

Anyway, this gun that the Hitler youth defended Germany with is a bit light and has a steel buttplate. I put 50 rounds through it shooting at turtles in a tank one day and, man, next day I could barely shoulder my 12 gauge to shoot doves. LOL! If the Hitler youth and old farts let out of nursing homes can fight with THAT, you can learn to take the recoil of a .30-06 sporting rifle for one shot at a deer, right? If not, turn in your man card, you WIMP!

 

[Kachok]

^LMAO No you don't NEED a 30 cal (but it is not a bad idea either) a quality 243, 25-06 or 6.5x55 will quickly dispatch ANY deer that ever walked and any healthy child over the age of 6 can handle the recoil. Anything under the 14lbs recoil range I consider a sissy kicker, because you can shoot the things all day long without hurting your shoulder. 15-20lbs is a moderate recoil rifle, those most people can handle 10-20 round in a session (30-06, 308, 270) without developing a flinch. Anything over 22lbs is a sloberknocker that should be used by experienced riflemen only. I personally can handle 308 and 30-06 all day long even without my recoil pad, but still prefer my sissy kicker 6.5x55 for deer hunting.