223: Varget vs. TAC viewpoint.

[kmw1954]

This post is mostly a follow-up to another thread posted here; https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/varget-powder.886677/ and some of the observations I have made while doing some load workup with both powders. Again just my personal observation, results and opinion yours very well could be the exact opposite.

SO these past few months I have been working loads for my 2 savage 223 rifles, one a model 10 and the other an Axis both with 1:9 twist in 22" Sporter barrels. The bullets I have used range from 55gr to 75gr with the bulk of them being 62gr or 69gr.

At this time much of my testing was done side by side with the two powders to compare against each other using the same brand brass, bullets and primers in each. Now I am hoping that I am still new enough at this that I haven't formed a bias to any of the components.

Some of the first things I noticed or learned is that the TAC being a flattened spherical powder as opposed to an extruded stick of the Varget the TAC pours and weighs much more consistent from a measure. Next is that the Varget consistently impacts about 2" lower at 100yds with both the 62gr and 68/69gr bullets and about 3" lower at 200yds,

Next with the TAC I seem to have found a large node between 23.5 to 23.8 that has shown very little if any inconsistency. Yes same group size and POI when used with the same bullet, a 62 gr Hornady FMJBT.. To which I also confirmed today that I have achieved the same group size and POI with the RMR 69gr HPBT and a 23.8gr charge at 200yds..

I have yet to find anything similar when using the Varget. So after shooting approximately 600 rounds of the 2 powders in the same gun at a variety of powder weights and COAL over a period of a few months my impression is that the TAC performs better than the Varget in the 223

I can also add that in this gun the 55gr bullets did not do as well as the heavier ones and that 75gr bullet was a complete bust.

 

[Blue68f100]

With the 1:9 twist try some of the 52gr SMK with the TAC. These shoot lights out of my AR with a 223R Min Spec chamber. If your has the Wydle chamber, your right you do need to shoot the heavier pills.

TAC has been a good powder for me as well as Varget. The Varget in my guns did better with the 69gr SMK than TAC but not by much.

 

[AJC1]

They are both great powders for sure. Tac is superior in a lot of ways but when shooting 80s I prefer varget. I also shoot in the desert so the temperature shift is large from 9 when I show up till 2 when I leave. Any positive experience is worth noting. A negative experience just means you need to figure out why it's not working. The good news is your preference is for the easier to find powder...

 

[kmw1954]

Any positive experience is worth noting. A negative experience just means you need to figure out why it's not working....

Anything positive that stood out would have been noted as I did with the TAC. Negative experience just means it simply did not work for what I was trying to do with it.

As noted the 75gr ELD would not stabilize with the 1:9 so I seriously believe neither will an 80gr.. Since I don't have a 1:8 or 1:7 there is no point for me to investigate that here. As for temps, I was limited to local ambient which during this test period ranged from about 30*F to 74*F.

From here I have a lb of BL-C(2) that I am going to play with using CCI450 primers and the 69gr RMR bullet.

 

[CMB]

Thanks for taking the time to write this up.

Nice Work!!

 

[kmw1954]

Thanks for taking the time to write this up.

Nice Work!!

Thank you! I enjoyed the work-ups and learned a bit more about the components and the caliber. I understand that this testing was very limited to just what I was doing and trying to accomplish. Not a very broad scope huh. But I at least hope this lends a little insight as I had no idea what to look for or expect when I started loading this 223.

 

[FROGO207]

You have confirmed that Tac is better in 223 for you as well as for me. Anything above 55 grains shoots better with Tac in my several 223's. I have also tried 3031, Varget, 4064, X-terminator, BLC 2, H335, Accurate 15, and several others. My 1:8.5 Shilen barrel liked Tac and 62 grain boat tail bullets best.

 

[kmw1954]

Thank you Frogo, For now my intention is to try the BL-C(2) next and then I have 3 lbs of Accurate 2460 to try. Going to proceed with these RMR 69gr bullets as they seen to be accurate and consistent and then when things settle down I may have to try some high end bullets on the 60 to 70gr range as I have decided to join our Winter rifle league where they are shooting 100 to 300yds over 10 weeks.

 

[peels]

I can also add that in this gun the 55gr bullets did not do as well as the heavier ones and that 75gr bullet was a complete bust.

Thanks for sharing @kmw1954. Do you know what's the velocity of your 75gn loads? I have a Savage 12 with 1:9 twist also, but with a 24" barrel. I've been wanting to try the 75 grain, but am afraid of the ability to stabilize the heavier bullet. My rifle shoots the 69 grain MK very well.

 

[AJC1]

Thanks for sharing @kmw1954. Do you know what's the velocity of your 75gn loads? I have a Savage 12 with 1:9 twist also, but with a 24" barrel. I've been wanting to try the 75 grain, but am afraid of the ability to stabilize the heavier bullet. My rifle shoots the 69 grain MK very well.

One thing to take note of is bullet and bearing surface length. The 69 and 77 were ment for typical ar style rifles and being loaded to mag length. I had two boxes of the hornaday 75s given to me because he could not get it to shoot well in his 1:7 ar.

 

[IALoder]

I enjoyed seeing your work ups! I have also found that my .223's prefer TAC over varget with literally every bullet I tried from 55-77gr. TAC is one of the best .223 powders out if you ask me. Somewhere in the 23.5-24.0gr area seems to be a pretty popular spot for a node with TAC, it shot well with 62, 69, &75/77gr bullets in that range in my 1/7 twist. Thanks for sharing!

 

[NR53]

I also got my best accuracy with TAC and the RMR 69 HPBT at 23.5 grains. However, I got the same accuracy with Shooters World Tactical rifle at 22 grains. SWTR is cheaper, burns cleaner and doesn't smell as bad as TAC. LOL

 

[kmw1954]

So far I have enjoyed the whole experience, from starting to shoot rifle to learning bottleneck reloading. Honestly, I have not shot a pistol since last Sept.. I have become that consumed with this endeavor.

I can't answer the question on bullet speed for the 75gr but my inclination is that I was way too slow in FPS and on the edge of what a 1:9 twist can easily stabilize.

So far from my searches there is no one locally that stocks Shooters World and I really prefer to buy locally whenever I can.

 

[Dudedog]

I haven't used Varget in .223 but I do like TAC, meters well, shoots well (for me at least)

 

[AJC1]

So far I have enjoyed the whole experience, from starting to shoot rifle to learning bottleneck reloading. Honestly, I have not shot a pistol since last Sept.. I have become that consumed with this endeavor.

I can't answer the question on bullet speed for the 75gr but my inclination is that I was way too slow in FPS and on the edge of what a 1:9 twist can easily stabilize.

So far from my searches there is no one locally that stocks Shooters World and I really prefer to buy locally whenever I can.

I've only ever seen SW at powder valley.

 

[Swampman]

Both Varget and TAC shoot about an inch using 69 grain Nosler BTHP's out of my non precision 1/7" AR.

TAC meters like water, Varget meters like moldy corn flakes.

Guess which one I use.

 

[jmorris]

Do you have any chronograph data? The difference might well be just velocity between the loads you are shooting (from the different trajectory data you provided).

That said, I too like TAC, I put it between 748 and xtermanator.

 

[horsey300]

You have confirmed that Tac is better in 223 for you as well as for me. Anything above 55 grains shoots better with Tac in my several 223's. I have also tried 3031, Varget, 4064, X-terminator, BLC 2, H335, Accurate 15, and several others. My 1:8.5 Shilen barrel liked Tac and 62 grain boat tail bullets best.

Thank you Frogo, For now my intention is to try the BL-C(2) next and then I have 3 lbs of Accurate 2460 to try. Going to proceed with these RMR 69gr bullets as they seen to be accurate and consistent and then when things settle down I may have to try some high end bullets on the 60 to 70gr range as I have decided to join our Winter rifle league where they are shooting 100 to 300yds over 10 weeks.

Just out of a curious nature, where does 8208 xbr lie in this ranking?
I also see reference to node but not precision achieved with said node, in 300 rds of each, varget grouped lower with a smaller node, but which gave THE average best groups???
Not finding anything similar with varget= did we check different seating depths, atrocious groups, just heat/node sensitive? I'm not nitpicking, just trying to fully understand the parameters of this experiment... Any velocity data at all?

 

[kmw1954]

Sorry guys there is no chrono data as I do not have one, my boss was supposed to be bringing in his Magneto Speed but so far hasn't and I am not going to pester him for it. Though I do believe from published data that the Varget is in fact slower FPS. Group size at times were similar though the TAC was more consistent. Though the very last testing I did at 200yds there was a Varget load with the 69gr bullet that showed promise though I still believe it needs to be much hotter. That load was at 22.9gr and I am now thinking I need to get to the 23.4 range. Which is about 1gr less than what will actually fit in a 223 case.

As to the 8208 I have no clue, don't have any and never used any but maybe some else has. And yes I have played with seating depth and in this gun all seem to like being longer than published.

 

[jmorris]

What sparked my question.

Next is that the Varget consistently impacts about 2" lower at 100yds with both the 62gr and 68/69gr bullets and about 3" lower at 200yds,

Next with the TAC I seem to have found a large node between 23.5 to 23.8 that has shown very little if any inconsistency.

From the above it seem like you could be under the velocity node you found with the bullet, using Varget. However, if you are happy with your results, no reason to keep looking.

 

[Skeptic13]

I reload with both Varget and TAC. TAC does meter better that Varget. However I tend to get much better accuracy with Varget than with TAC. Not bad with TAC just better with Varget. I have ended up using 23.1 gr of TAC for all of my plinking loads with 55 gr bullets. That probably seems like a light charge for some but I get good accuracy for a plinking load and get to stretch my powder usage some. I use 24.5 gr of Varget for 60 gr Hornady SP and 62 gr FMJ loads. The main problem I have with Varget is that it is very hard to find and that started way before this latest panic. I haven't seen Varget available retail for almost 2 years. So TAC gets used more often.

 

[anothernewb]

Tried Tac, but I never got it to run any better than good old 748 with the 55 grain pills I usually use.

 

[kmw1954]

From the above it seem like you could be under the velocity node you found with the bullet, using Varget. However, if you are happy with your results, no reason to keep looking.

Yes even the person that gifted me the Varget seems to think it is much slower than what I'm getting from the TAC. So as posted in #19 I'm going to kick it up a notch and then compare again. Agreed a chrono would help and it is on my list to acquire one.

 

[Blue68f100]

When I'm using Varget I'm near max load. 69gr SMK 25.9 gr Varget @ 2.260", Rem 7 1/2 primer ( CCI#41 and GM205MAR all work), Lapua brass, 25.8 gr with LC-15 brass. I shoot these out of several AR's with Min Spec Match chambers, 1:9 twist. With TAC I never had to go to max. I'm using 23.5 gr of TAC for the same load. My 1:10 twist barrel likes the 52gr SMK better with TAC over Varget.

 

[Dudedog]

I've only ever seen SW at powder valley.

Midsouth Shooters carries SW powders, out of stock at the moment but they do list them.