.38 Special 3-inch barrel performance?

[Shivahasagun]

Fired in .357 magnum chambers.

Can I get s 125 gr XTP to average 1125 fps?

I've chronographed Federals old 147 gr Hydrashok +p+ from this gun and got 950 fps. So, 22 less grains, asking for 175 fps more.

Why? Because I didn't quite get the velocity I wanted with 158 gr xtp in this 3 inch .357 with .357 brass so I've got some 125 XTP's to try and my goal is 1125 fps. Wanting a little less recoil, too.

But if I can get that in .38 brass I already have I may as well make my practice loads in .38 cases, too.

I do a look into every case before seating a bullet. It's a little harder peering at @3.5 grs deep in that .357 case. (For the practice loads)

 

[243winxb]

Hodgdon 38 spec list Longshot as fastest.

In 357 brass, a lot faster.

 

[Shivahasagun]

The most appropriate I have are CFE-P and Enforcer.

Never seen data for .38 and Enforcer, though.

 

[LoadingPirate]

Im getting near that with 125gr XTPs and Auto Comp with my 3 inch model 65

 

[fxvr5]

why are you insisting to use 38 special cases in a 357 magnum chamber? Just use 357 cases.

 

[Shivahasagun]

why are you insisting to use 38 special cases in a 357 magnum chamber? Just use 357 cases.

I pretty much explained that already.

And I'll add easier to eject the shorter cases.

I'm either going to get .38 Colt cases for practice loads and keep using .357 for training / carry loads or use .38 Special for all.

 

[fxvr5]

I pretty much explained that already.

No you didn't. You said you could not get a 158 grain bullet in 357 brass to your desired speed, which you never specified, but that has nothing to do with getting a 125 grain bullet to your desired speed in 38 special brass.

Can you get a 125 gr XTP to 1125 fps in 38 Special brass? Yes, if your pressure limit is 357 pressure (35,000 psi). You won't get it at 38 Special or 38 Special +P pressure.

 

[Mr_Flintstone]

Well, you can go a little above posted .38 Special +P load data if you are loading for a .357 Magnum revolver. Most don’t recommend it because there’s a chance they might make their way into a regular .38 Special revolver. I’d mark them well so there’ll be no mistaking them for regular .38 Special.

You can probably get there with 3N37, N350, AutoComp, IMR-4227, and maybe Unique, 2400, Blue Dot, and some others. They’ll probably be right at the top of the max pressure for .38 Special +P or a little higher.

 

[Shivahasagun]

No you didn't. You said you could not get a 158 grain bullet in 357 brass to your desired speed, which you never specified, but that has nothing to do with getting a 125 grain bullet to your desired speed in 38 special brass.

Can you get a 125 gr XTP to 1125 fps in 38 Special brass? Yes, if your pressure limit is 357 pressure (35,000 psi). You won't get it at 38 Special or 38 Special +P pressure.

It was in this part:

"...Wanting a little less recoil, too.

But if I can get that (125 gr 1125 fps) in .38 brass I already have I may as well make my practice loads in .38 cases, too.

I do a look into every case before seating a bullet. It's a little harder peering at @3.5 grs deep in that .357 case. (For the practice loads)"

Firing them in a .357 I dont mind going beyond book a little with .38 Special brass.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

I never did see where you said which powders you’re wanting to use.

 

[Shivahasagun]

I never did see where you said which powders you’re wanting to use.

The most appropriate I have is CFE-P.

I also have Enforcer, but I haven't seen any .38 Special Enforcer data. I do have it for .357 using the same 125 gr XTP HP.

AutoComp has been brought up. I need to look into that one I'm not familiar with it.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

The most appropriate I have is CFE-P.

I also have Enforcer, but I haven't seen any .38 Special Enforcer data. I do have it for .357 using the same 125 gr XTP HP.

AutoComp has been brought up. I need to look into that one I'm not familiar with it.

Of the powders I’ve seen available recently, Accurate No.5 and VV 3N37 are the top contenders with published data. All things being equal, you may be able to interpolate some Ramshot Silhouette or Enforcer data but, that’s a bit more risky.

 

[fxvr5]

I also have Enforcer, but I haven't seen any .38 Special Enforcer data.

That's because it isn't normally used for 38 Special pressures. If you're going to use 357 pressures, Enforcer is a possibility.

 

[Shivahasagun]

That's because it isn't normally used for 38 Special pressures. If you're going to use 357 pressures, Enforcer is a possibility.

Figuring out where to start is the foggy part I think.

With the 125 gr xtp hp:

I see .38+p max 6.4 gr of CFEP.
.357 start 6.9 gr CFEP.

Enforcer starts at 16.2 gr .357.

 

[Shivahasagun]

Maybe data for heavier .357 bullets can help?

Maybe .357 with a 158 gr bullet volume is close to a .38 case with a 125 gr bullet?

CFEP .357 158 gr xtp shows 6.1 to 6.9.

 

[Mycin]

I've been collecting loading data for years. I have a rather large spreadsheet of various loads from various sources.

The highest velocity 125gr 38 loads I have are from the Sierra manual (2019). It lists four different powders achieving 1300 fps with the Sierra 125gr bullets from a 5.63" barrel. Powders are Alliant Power Pistol, Ramshot Silhouette, Accurate No. 7 and Accurate No. 9. FYI, the same manual lists CFE Pistol and AutoComp getting 1250fps.

Of course, all these are +P loads.

I don't know if you'd get 1125fps from a 3" revolver with any of these, but they're probably about as close as you'll come while staying within 38+P pressures.

 

[Mr_Flintstone]

Figuring out where to start is the foggy part I think.

With the 125 gr xtp hp:

I see .38+p max 6.4 gr of CFEP.
.357 start 6.9 gr CFEP.

Enforcer starts at 16.2 gr .357.

Start with 38 +P and work upward at .1 gr increments. If you don’t hit your intended velocity by about 6.7or so, I’d abandon the idea and go with magnum cases; not that your gun won’t handle those pressures, but that your .38 special brass will wear out faster at those pressures than your magnum cases. Some say they won’t, but I’ve walked down this path, and they will.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

I've been collecting loading data for years. I have a rather large spreadsheet of various loads from various sources.

The highest velocity 125gr 38 loads I have are from the Sierra manual (2019). It lists four different powders achieving 1300 fps with the Sierra 125gr bullets from a 5.63" barrel. Powders are Alliant Power Pistol, Ramshot Silhouette, Accurate No. 7 and Accurate No. 9. FYI, the same manual lists CFE Pistol and AutoComp getting 1250fps.

Of course, all these are +P loads.

I don't know if you'd get 1125fps from a 3" revolver with any of these, but they're probably about as close as you'll come while staying within 38+P pressures.

Published data for Silhouette seems a good choice. Powder Valley has one pounders in stock. https://www.powdervalleyinc.com/product/ramshot-silhouette/

 

[Shivahasagun]

Start with 38 +P and work upward at .1 gr increments. If you don’t hit your intended velocity by about 6.7or so, I’d abandon the idea and go with magnum cases; not that your gun won’t handle those pressures, but that your .38 special brass will wear out faster at those pressures than your magnum cases. Some say they won’t, but I’ve walked down this path, and they will.

That's the most pragmatic thing to do, thanks!

I did alot of searching and read of people having that experience. I read some talk of some .38 cases being thinner / weaker than some .357 cases which may increase the chances of split cases. That could include cases splitting in a way that gets stuck in the chamber. Definitely something I dont want.

I agree that stepping up to .38 +p+ has been done commercially even and in a .357 gun is fine. But when pressure is well away from .38 +p and closer to .357 its wiser to put that in .357 brass.

 

[Mycin]

Published data for Silhouette seems a good choice. Powder Valley has one pounders in stock. https://www.powdervalleyinc.com/product/ramshot-silhouette/

I picked up a pound at Scheels in The Colony, TX this past Saturday. (Sorry for the late report, anyone in N. Texas. It was a busy weekend.)

 

[mdi]

I would break down your project into reasonable steps and work on one at a time.
Want 357 performance in 38 Special brass? Start with 38 +P data and work up.
Lighter recoil with higher velocities? Usually doesn't happen. Choose one or the other.
147 gr. Hydra shock, 158 gr XTP, 125 XTP? Pick one and stay with that (data and thinking).
Can't see 3.5 gr of powder in a 357 case? Get reading glasses. Use a stronger flashlight. Go with Trail Boss.
How did you establish your 1,125 fps goal?

 

[Shivahasagun]

How did you establish your 1,125 fps goal?

Based on terminal performance testing I could find. Same as I did for the 158 gr xtp.

I havent had a place to do my own testing in years.

I want the bullet to expand at close range but not flatten out / come apart which 125's will do driven fast enough. I also prefer the tamer blast and recoil of a "moderate" .357 load. Factory 125 gr Rem. Golden Saber for example.

The 158's at 1075 fps (factory load from a 2 inch barrel) are just starting to show signs of difficult expansion. My loads averaged 1050 fps (3 inch) with some down as far as 1020 fps.

I dont want any additional recoil or blast so that is what it is. Better as a woods load.

If the 125 xtp's don't work out I'll go to plan C, which is the 'ol LHP loaded to .38 +p / +p+ pressure.

 

[Mr_Flintstone]

Based on terminal performance testing I could find. Same as I did for the 158 gr xtp.

I havent had a place to do my own testing in years.

I want the bullet to expand at close range but not flatten out / come apart which 125's will do driven fast enough. I also prefer the tamer blast and recoil of a "moderate" .357 load. Factory 125 gr Rem. Golden Saber for example.

The 158's at 1075 fps (factory load from a 2 inch barrel) are just starting to show signs of difficult expansion. My loads averaged 1050 fps (3 inch) with some down as far as 1020 fps.

I dont want any additional recoil or blast so that is what it is. Better as a woods load.

If the 125 xtp's don't work out I'll go to plan C, which is the 'ol LHP loaded to .38 +p / +p+ pressure.

Those XTPs won’t come apart at revolver velocities. I’ve driven them over 2000 fps from a rifle with no problem.

 

[AJC1]

In all seriousness if your doing this type of exploration, buy quickload or do a favor for someone with the program. Gordon's is also a tool for that type of development. With Gordon's you can add your tests to validate your data... I'm still playing with initial results so I'm not claiming accuracy.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

In all seriousness if your doing this type of exploration, buy quickload or do a favor for someone with the program. Gordon's is also a tool for that type of development. With Gordon's you can add your tests to validate your data... I'm still playing with initial results so I'm not claiming accuracy.

Seriously, can’t second that loudly enough.