380 Mousegun
- Thread starter earlthegoat2
- Start date
- Status
old_ironsights
Member
earlthegoat2, you opine that, "Its barely enough to meet the first rule of a gunfight" but I've not met the person yet who was willing to be shot with a .380 to prove just how totally inadequate it is.
I don't suppose, warrior that you are, you'd volunteer to be the first....?
I don't suppose, warrior that you are, you'd volunteer to be the first....?
Jason M
Member
I think you are correct, but "mouse gun" seems to have become a derogatory term for guns people think are weak or some such thing.
And choosing 9mm over .380 is not a bad thing. A little more power when it comes to protecting your life is never unwarranted. If you can carry the larger pistol confidently and comfortably with no issues, then by all means, carry it. My carry piece is a Kahr CW9 most of the time. Small, thin, easily carried and doesn't restrict my ranges of motion. 7+1 of 9mm is, to me, always better than .380, but given certain circumstances for carry, I would certainly not turn away .380.
jackstinson
Member
I think you answered yourself. Not everyone has a "warrior mindset" or is a "gunfighting practitioner".
A lot of people carrying are just plain folk who do what they are comfortable with to protect themselves. They get a CHL and a small handgun, hopefully most learn to shoot it well. That may be far less gun and training than the gunfighting practitioner (sounds like something from a movie) might feel all wam'n'fuzzy with. Consider all the folk carrying pocket .25acp's for decades.
Bobo
Member
My personal reasons for being a .380 mousegunner...
My goal was to obtain one firearm that would work for all contingencies.
I knew that this would mean that I probably would have to accept some compromises.
My list of priorities were:
1) A gun that could be within arm’s reach at ALL times.
2) That could be TOTALLY concealed.
3) That would be powerful enough to stop most anticipated threats reliably in all light levels.
4) That I could become and stay proficient with quickly and easily.
I bought my almost perfect compromise about two and a half years ago. I got a Kel-Tec P-3AT with an ArmaLaser sight and a few other minor enhancements that make it more efficient for me. I carry it 24/7/365 in a SmartCarry holster with two spare magazines filled with a mix of Remington Golden Saber JHP and Santa Barbara TCMJ. I say “almost perfect” compromise because I would have preferred at least a 9 mm. Actually, if I could find a pistol of similar size and weight in 9 mm that would accept a laser there would be no compromise at all!
Bobo
My goal was to obtain one firearm that would work for all contingencies.
I knew that this would mean that I probably would have to accept some compromises.
My list of priorities were:
1) A gun that could be within arm’s reach at ALL times.
2) That could be TOTALLY concealed.
3) That would be powerful enough to stop most anticipated threats reliably in all light levels.
4) That I could become and stay proficient with quickly and easily.
I bought my almost perfect compromise about two and a half years ago. I got a Kel-Tec P-3AT with an ArmaLaser sight and a few other minor enhancements that make it more efficient for me. I carry it 24/7/365 in a SmartCarry holster with two spare magazines filled with a mix of Remington Golden Saber JHP and Santa Barbara TCMJ. I say “almost perfect” compromise because I would have preferred at least a 9 mm. Actually, if I could find a pistol of similar size and weight in 9 mm that would accept a laser there would be no compromise at all!
Bobo
lanternlad1
Member
- Joined
- Apr 14, 2007
- Messages
- 770
"Actually, if I could find a pistol of similar size and weight in 9 mm that would accept a laser there would be no compromise at all!"
Kel -Tec PF-9?
I've had both - its VERY close in size/weight to the P3AT and is a 9mm.
Its very much a "carry much/shoot little" gun tho, as it will chew up your hand.
Kel -Tec PF-9?
I've had both - its VERY close in size/weight to the P3AT and is a 9mm.
Its very much a "carry much/shoot little" gun tho, as it will chew up your hand.
OP
OP
earlthegoat2
Member
Quote: I don't suppose, warrior that you are, you'd volunteer to be the first....?
Im sure there arent going to be many volunteers to be shot with a 22 LR either
Im sure there arent going to be many volunteers to be shot with a 22 LR either
HarleyFixer
Member
I find it interesting that the .380 is so denegrated on here. It has been the primary pistol cartridge in Europe for almost a century. Is it the the best available.....No.......is it adequate.....Yes
jjohnson
Member
Not the First Choice
Sure, I'll weigh in with the rest of you.
I do prefer 45ACP for self defense, but it's just not concealable enough for me under most circumstances.
My usual CCW is a Makarov in .380. Believe it or not, it is the replacement for my Kel-Tec P40 (.40 cal, no longer made). The Kel-tec lost its job when, after no more than 300 rounds or so, it broke the slide release pin
, rendering it useless. 
The Mak, on the other had, has been through a few thousand reloads and several hundred factory loads, and has digested all of them reliably. I do like more power in a handgun, but if I have to choose, I'll take an utterly reliable .380 over a .40 I don't trust
any day.
Sure, I'll weigh in with the rest of you.
I do prefer 45ACP for self defense, but it's just not concealable enough for me under most circumstances.
My usual CCW is a Makarov in .380. Believe it or not, it is the replacement for my Kel-Tec P40 (.40 cal, no longer made). The Kel-tec lost its job when, after no more than 300 rounds or so, it broke the slide release pin
, rendering it useless. The Mak, on the other had, has been through a few thousand reloads and several hundred factory loads, and has digested all of them reliably. I do like more power in a handgun, but if I have to choose, I'll take an utterly reliable .380 over a .40 I don't trust
any day.Phantom Captain
Member
Wow, this will make you choke then...
Just got back from the range and shot 150 .380 rounds through my PPK/s. Yes, I practice with mine. Quite a bit actually too.
vintage sportsman: I have a stainless S&W PPK/s with over 1500 rounds through it with very little trouble other than it not getting along with certain manufacturers bullets. It really doesn't like FMJ Fiocchi in particular, they just don't feed right and I'm not even sure why. I think it may even be that they are hotter and doing something on the blowback but am not sure. Those are pretty much the only FMJs it doesn't like. Most all other FMJ's shoot fine and I usually practice with either Magtech or Independence and sometimes American Eagles. For carry rounds I'm sold on Remington Golden Sabers with the 102gr bullet. They feed perfectly, are super accurate and I trust my life with this package. Love my PPK/s even though I see a lot of people down-talk them.
To the OP, my PPK/s .380 is the perfect balance between concealability, feel and power in my opinion for the situations I would expect to ever be in. Plus I'm super comfortable with it and shoot it really well. It's actually my colder weather gun when I'm in heavier or more clothes.
You don't like the .380s then you will really be stunned to find my summer gun is a Beretta Tomcat INOX .32. I have no problem carrying the .32 and LOVE it for it's size and concealability also. I also really like the flip up barrel. I have full faith that 8 rounds of .32 FMJ will stop anyone. I even carry a spare mag with it. I also have complete faith and trust in my little .32.
Don't get me wrong, I also own a 9mm P99 and .45 1911 but I just don't like carrying them so much. Occasionally I do just to do something different but for the most part they are both too big, too bulky, too uncomfortable for me and how I dress and why I carry. I'm completely happy with my choices and have complete faith and trust in both my little "mouseguns".
Just got back from the range and shot 150 .380 rounds through my PPK/s. Yes, I practice with mine. Quite a bit actually too.
vintage sportsman: I have a stainless S&W PPK/s with over 1500 rounds through it with very little trouble other than it not getting along with certain manufacturers bullets. It really doesn't like FMJ Fiocchi in particular, they just don't feed right and I'm not even sure why. I think it may even be that they are hotter and doing something on the blowback but am not sure. Those are pretty much the only FMJs it doesn't like. Most all other FMJ's shoot fine and I usually practice with either Magtech or Independence and sometimes American Eagles. For carry rounds I'm sold on Remington Golden Sabers with the 102gr bullet. They feed perfectly, are super accurate and I trust my life with this package. Love my PPK/s even though I see a lot of people down-talk them.
To the OP, my PPK/s .380 is the perfect balance between concealability, feel and power in my opinion for the situations I would expect to ever be in. Plus I'm super comfortable with it and shoot it really well. It's actually my colder weather gun when I'm in heavier or more clothes.
You don't like the .380s then you will really be stunned to find my summer gun is a Beretta Tomcat INOX .32. I have no problem carrying the .32 and LOVE it for it's size and concealability also. I also really like the flip up barrel. I have full faith that 8 rounds of .32 FMJ will stop anyone. I even carry a spare mag with it. I also have complete faith and trust in my little .32.
Don't get me wrong, I also own a 9mm P99 and .45 1911 but I just don't like carrying them so much. Occasionally I do just to do something different but for the most part they are both too big, too bulky, too uncomfortable for me and how I dress and why I carry. I'm completely happy with my choices and have complete faith and trust in both my little "mouseguns".
DMW
Member
Camcorder logic
I use the camcorder logic on this one. A friend once told me to buy the smallest camcorder you can find. That way you will take it with you more often.
In the case of a carry weapon, the vast majority of people that carry them will never use them for self defense in their lifetimes. So, 99.999% of the argument for a carry weapon is about ease of carry and not stopping power.
I use the camcorder logic on this one. A friend once told me to buy the smallest camcorder you can find. That way you will take it with you more often.
In the case of a carry weapon, the vast majority of people that carry them will never use them for self defense in their lifetimes. So, 99.999% of the argument for a carry weapon is about ease of carry and not stopping power.
CDH
Member
While I'm one of those who is perfectly comfortable carrying a .380, I've found that it's possible to carry a 9mm in the size and form factor of a mouse gun... the Rohrbaugh R9S Stealth.
I originally got it to be my "lightly dressed" pistol for when I used to carry my PPK .380.
But now, the Rohrbaugh has not only replaced my PPK, it's also become my most frequently carried pistol on any given day.
Front pocket, back pocket, and IWB; it does it all.
I originally got it to be my "lightly dressed" pistol for when I used to carry my PPK .380.
But now, the Rohrbaugh has not only replaced my PPK, it's also become my most frequently carried pistol on any given day.
Front pocket, back pocket, and IWB; it does it all.
Boba Fett
Member
Down Range Television to the Rescue.
Just watch this video. The guys at Down Range Relevision explain the key points of what this kind of weapon is used for.
Down Range TV
I think this pretty much covers all the little mouseguns. They have their role.
I used to hear the derringer pistols referred to as "gut guns." Meaning that you stuck it in someone's gut and pulled the trigger. Meaning, it was a very close range weapon.
The mouseguns (which have come a long way since the derringers) are perfect for the "Give me your walled," situations (please, I'm not suggesting people play hero). Such confrontations are usually close up and might not allow you to get your standard 45 carry gun. They make a good number of mouseguns that actually fit in your back pocket with a special add-on that makes the gun mostly square (i.e. like you are reaching for your wallet).
As for the 380 caliber, I don't much care for it. Nothing wrong with the round. It has it's role. Just personal preference. I actually prefer the 9mm; very fun for plinking...but it really does have some issues as a carry caliber so I don't carry it (i.e. going through the bad guys and into other people).
I don't quite see how a 380 caliber gun is "slow to deploy." A gun in my shorts pocket is far easier to get to than reaching behind my back and under my shirt. At the very least, it is no slower to deploy than most other conceal carry methods.
Someone once jokingly told me that all pistols are a compromise to rifle calibers.
(The notable exception being the AMT Automag III which came in 30 Carbine.) But consider that if someone shoots you with a 380, it isn't going to be like they shot you with a BB gun.
Most of us probably won't be attacked by a drug crazed psychopath that required us to empty the magazine of a full size 45 into them (or put another way...most of us won't need that kind of stopping power). However, your grandmother walking to her car at the grocery store at night has a higher probability of encountering some nasty people who want to mug her. She can reach into her purse and pull out a small gun with a recoil she feels comfortable with and defend herself. If your a 6'5" guy weighing 200 pounds, you can handle the higher calibers easier and probably won't have to worry about getting mugged in the first place.
Most people will tell you that shot placement wins the battle...not the caliber. If you shoot someone in the head with a 22 they will be just as dead as with a 45. But please...aim center mass...most people aren't that good a shot especially in these sort of situations...I know I wouldn't be.
I've been looking at getting a mousegun, but wasn't impressed with most until the new Ruger came out. It won't replace my standard CCW, but it will give me some extra versatility. Probably will carry both from time to time.
Just watch this video. The guys at Down Range Relevision explain the key points of what this kind of weapon is used for.
Down Range TV
I think this pretty much covers all the little mouseguns. They have their role.
I used to hear the derringer pistols referred to as "gut guns." Meaning that you stuck it in someone's gut and pulled the trigger. Meaning, it was a very close range weapon.
The mouseguns (which have come a long way since the derringers) are perfect for the "Give me your walled," situations (please, I'm not suggesting people play hero). Such confrontations are usually close up and might not allow you to get your standard 45 carry gun. They make a good number of mouseguns that actually fit in your back pocket with a special add-on that makes the gun mostly square (i.e. like you are reaching for your wallet).
As for the 380 caliber, I don't much care for it. Nothing wrong with the round. It has it's role. Just personal preference. I actually prefer the 9mm; very fun for plinking...but it really does have some issues as a carry caliber so I don't carry it (i.e. going through the bad guys and into other people).
I don't quite see how a 380 caliber gun is "slow to deploy." A gun in my shorts pocket is far easier to get to than reaching behind my back and under my shirt. At the very least, it is no slower to deploy than most other conceal carry methods.
Someone once jokingly told me that all pistols are a compromise to rifle calibers.
(The notable exception being the AMT Automag III which came in 30 Carbine.) But consider that if someone shoots you with a 380, it isn't going to be like they shot you with a BB gun.
Most of us probably won't be attacked by a drug crazed psychopath that required us to empty the magazine of a full size 45 into them (or put another way...most of us won't need that kind of stopping power). However, your grandmother walking to her car at the grocery store at night has a higher probability of encountering some nasty people who want to mug her. She can reach into her purse and pull out a small gun with a recoil she feels comfortable with and defend herself. If your a 6'5" guy weighing 200 pounds, you can handle the higher calibers easier and probably won't have to worry about getting mugged in the first place.
Most people will tell you that shot placement wins the battle...not the caliber. If you shoot someone in the head with a 22 they will be just as dead as with a 45. But please...aim center mass...most people aren't that good a shot especially in these sort of situations...I know I wouldn't be.
I've been looking at getting a mousegun, but wasn't impressed with most until the new Ruger came out. It won't replace my standard CCW, but it will give me some extra versatility. Probably will carry both from time to time.
Last edited:
MICHAEL T
Member
I think my Colt Mustang is a better carry than my KelTec Which was smaller and lighter than my PPK/S That was replaced by my Bersa I really see nothing wrong with a 380. 380 About the same as the old 36 cal BP pistol and Wild Bill did all right with those. Its really shot placement. Funny how many people have died or went to hospital from the little 22 25 32 and 380 .
Bryan_Willman
Member
- Joined
- Dec 3, 2008
- Messages
- 11
Contemplations on Pistol Power
A look at books like "stopping power" reveals that even a .380 is a one shot stopper some good part of the time. Between 50% and 70%.
Which means that an attacker is able to continue to prosecute their attack between .5 and .3 of the time. Assuming you only shot them once.
If you shoot them twice, their chances of continuing their attack are, say, .5*.5 (or 25%). In other words, if a gun is a .5 one shot stopper, we can sort of expect it to be a .75 two shot stopper. (There are issues with this related to thick clothes/armor and the mental state of the attacker.)
But it does lead me to think that it's not "bullet-power" that matters, but rather "rate-of-hits * bullet-power * odds-gun-is-at-hand * amount-gun-interfers-with-taking-cover * odds-gun-works". There are likely more terms in the equation.
There is apparently NO weapon you could carry that will stop 100% of attackers - some people are not halted by blasts from 12ga shotguns.
And context matters a great deal. Should law enforcement carry .22LR pistols on patrol? No. On drug raids? Surely not. On border patrol? Good gawd no. But all of those activities involve the LEO confronting someone. Traffic stops for driving erratically. Arresting people. Stopping people from crossing the border illegally.
I (and many of us) don't do those things. I'm really only interested in making threats go away. I pay (via taxes) for LE to do the other things, hopefully in organized groups with good tactics and good equipment.
The LEO often faces someone who thinks of it as "fight and maybe die, or comply and go to prison, which is worse than dying."
But a defender generally doesn't - someone attacking me faces "fight and maybe die, or run away before the cops get here"
So, *could* I face an attacker (or group of them) amped on PCP and Crank who cannot be stopped by a .380? Sure. Then again, the same attackers might not be stopped by blasts from one of my 12ga shotguns.
You really want to think long and hard about what part of the threats you will likely try to repel with force would be stopped by gun A and not by gun B, keeping in mind the odds of having either gun at hand, how well you shoot it, how reliable it is, and so on.
If you live in the woods, and rapid bears and crazy tweakers are real literal threats, you most likely want 'bigger guns' at hand.
If your main issue is punk teenagers (who have been amazingly lethal in Seattle lately) or muggers, then always having a gun that works when you are set upon is really key. Note that you may not have to actually fire it, merely persuade the attacker you WILL fire it.
Given all of the above, I think the issues are "how much do people practice" and "how reliable are the guns and their holsters, magazines, and ammunition".
A look at books like "stopping power" reveals that even a .380 is a one shot stopper some good part of the time. Between 50% and 70%.
Which means that an attacker is able to continue to prosecute their attack between .5 and .3 of the time. Assuming you only shot them once.
If you shoot them twice, their chances of continuing their attack are, say, .5*.5 (or 25%). In other words, if a gun is a .5 one shot stopper, we can sort of expect it to be a .75 two shot stopper. (There are issues with this related to thick clothes/armor and the mental state of the attacker.)
But it does lead me to think that it's not "bullet-power" that matters, but rather "rate-of-hits * bullet-power * odds-gun-is-at-hand * amount-gun-interfers-with-taking-cover * odds-gun-works". There are likely more terms in the equation.
There is apparently NO weapon you could carry that will stop 100% of attackers - some people are not halted by blasts from 12ga shotguns.
And context matters a great deal. Should law enforcement carry .22LR pistols on patrol? No. On drug raids? Surely not. On border patrol? Good gawd no. But all of those activities involve the LEO confronting someone. Traffic stops for driving erratically. Arresting people. Stopping people from crossing the border illegally.
I (and many of us) don't do those things. I'm really only interested in making threats go away. I pay (via taxes) for LE to do the other things, hopefully in organized groups with good tactics and good equipment.
The LEO often faces someone who thinks of it as "fight and maybe die, or comply and go to prison, which is worse than dying."
But a defender generally doesn't - someone attacking me faces "fight and maybe die, or run away before the cops get here"
So, *could* I face an attacker (or group of them) amped on PCP and Crank who cannot be stopped by a .380? Sure. Then again, the same attackers might not be stopped by blasts from one of my 12ga shotguns.
You really want to think long and hard about what part of the threats you will likely try to repel with force would be stopped by gun A and not by gun B, keeping in mind the odds of having either gun at hand, how well you shoot it, how reliable it is, and so on.
If you live in the woods, and rapid bears and crazy tweakers are real literal threats, you most likely want 'bigger guns' at hand.
If your main issue is punk teenagers (who have been amazingly lethal in Seattle lately) or muggers, then always having a gun that works when you are set upon is really key. Note that you may not have to actually fire it, merely persuade the attacker you WILL fire it.
Given all of the above, I think the issues are "how much do people practice" and "how reliable are the guns and their holsters, magazines, and ammunition".
zombienerd
Member
380 is enough to kill. Box-o-truth covered it... With JHP it passed through 4 jugs of water, more than enough for a heart shot. The FMJ went through 5 jugs.
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot26_2.htm
380 is great in my book.
http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot26_2.htm
380 is great in my book.
OP
OP
earlthegoat2
Member
Im sure theres tons of people and supposed experts who have covered it and drawn conclusions one way or another from it. the real deal is do I want someone who got a CCW just so they could carry a tiny gun in their hip pocket and actually have an honest chance of stopping an attack with no training.
tinygnat219
Member
I put it down to a couple of reasons: Price and size. These are simply convenient to carry.
Boba Fett
Member
As opposed to an untrained AND unlicensed person?
People get a CCW so they can legally...are you paying attention...CARRY CONCEALED WEAPONS. As opposed to not carrying a firearm at all.
Yes, they have an honest chance of stopping someone. Are they going to stop them SWAT style, two to the chest one to the head? No. And neither are most of us who actually practice at a range.
Remember that to carry, you have to pass the shooting portion of the class.
In the end, a person who has gone through CCW training and has a pistol and not practiced since then (except to renew their CCW perhaps) will have a better chance than someone who has no weapon at all.
Again, remember that most conflicts are close range. Point and shoot will probably suffice. And as others have pointed out, a mousegun will fill the role well enough.
Marlin 45 carbine
Member
I replace a PPK/S .380acp with a Makarov 9X18 due to better fit of my large hands (the Walther was beating my thumb knuckle up w/the slide makeing it hard to practice with) a side + is the Mak chambering is a little more potent.
as some here I carry a .32acp and spare mag when lightly dressed, I practice w/it 3-4 times a year.
as some here I carry a .32acp and spare mag when lightly dressed, I practice w/it 3-4 times a year.
Zebulon
Member
I've been a handgunner of sorts for about 22 years. I've read literally thousands of opinions concerning calibers and stopping power, as have most of you. I love some of the guns chambered for the .380...have a pair of Beretta 84's right now and have owned Sig 230's, Sphinx 380M's, and am considering a PPK/S as I write. I was also introduced into the handgun fraternity at the very beginning of the WonderNine wars of the late 80's-Eraly 90's when there were great guns available in single stack configurations and great Wheelguns, that languished on the Gunstore shelves for long periods of time because the American mindset became more is better.
I love 9mm...another target of Gunstore Pistoleros. Maybe it just takes more bullet to stop an American attacker than other attackers.
Despite reading all the opinions and studies available over the last 20 years, I'm convinced that there is NO one solution, and that each and every shooting incident stands alone. I personally know a man who took 3 .45 hits to the head and was found wandering on a back raod outside Wichita Falls, Texas, and lived both to tell about it and party with my friends and I in 1966. His short term memory and some fine motor skills were somewhat effected, but he lives on.
I've also read the reports of those who were hit with .22 longs and died as a result of "believing" they were "supposed" to die when shot...and apparently did.
There is much more involved than caliber OR shot placement. I can't tell you what it is, but there are always and ever, contradictory results in shootings. I like .380 apart from the expense of the round. I also love the .357 Sig and have no idea why...another mutt for some to kick around..... Zebulon
I love 9mm...another target of Gunstore Pistoleros. Maybe it just takes more bullet to stop an American attacker than other attackers.
Despite reading all the opinions and studies available over the last 20 years, I'm convinced that there is NO one solution, and that each and every shooting incident stands alone. I personally know a man who took 3 .45 hits to the head and was found wandering on a back raod outside Wichita Falls, Texas, and lived both to tell about it and party with my friends and I in 1966. His short term memory and some fine motor skills were somewhat effected, but he lives on.
I've also read the reports of those who were hit with .22 longs and died as a result of "believing" they were "supposed" to die when shot...and apparently did.
There is much more involved than caliber OR shot placement. I can't tell you what it is, but there are always and ever, contradictory results in shootings. I like .380 apart from the expense of the round. I also love the .357 Sig and have no idea why...another mutt for some to kick around.....
Zebulon- Status
Similar threads
- Locked
