natedog
Member
What do .45 ACP FMJ terminal ballistics look like? Any ballistic gelatin tests?
.45 Hardball
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Nightcrawler
Member
Basically, it'll drill a 0.45" hole clean through a person. On the plus side, though, inadequate penetration isn't a problem.
Remember, JHP ammo is fine, but it doesn't make up for a poor shot or an underpowered cartridge. A .25ACP hollow point is still just a .25ACP.
Remember, JHP ammo is fine, but it doesn't make up for a poor shot or an underpowered cartridge. A .25ACP hollow point is still just a .25ACP.
sjtalon
Member
Back in the 1980s, my department issued Ball for 45 ACP. That was because our issue Government Models and privately owned 1911s were not all 100% reliable with the hollow points then available.
None of the shootings we had resulted in a "hole clean through" the body cavity. This over penetration of Ball is a widely held misconception, not supported by the facts.
Missouri Mule
Member
I too am a fan of "Hardball"!
I use it exclusively in two of my older unthroated 1911's that hicup now and again with some hp's.
I use it exclusively in two of my older unthroated 1911's that hicup now and again with some hp's.
Dave T, I wish you would write a bit more on the .45 ball performance. Those gelatin profiles seem logical, but supporting what you're saying I've read repeatedly that .45 ball exits a human torso only a minority of the time. There are also xrays I've seen with hardball still in the torso. What this leads me to believe is that hardball, at least in 230 gr. .45 persuasion, yaws very easily, limiting its penetration. But why doesn't it yaw in gelatin?
Another factor may be penetration resistance of skin. Perhaps it slows bullets like an animals hide does. Maybe a surgeon can offer some insight on that. If this were true, 20" of gelatin penetration might be reduced to something like 10" in a human.
Another factor may be penetration resistance of skin. Perhaps it slows bullets like an animals hide does. Maybe a surgeon can offer some insight on that. If this were true, 20" of gelatin penetration might be reduced to something like 10" in a human.
I can offer one piece of real world data.
I ran a call on a guy 20 years ago, that had been shot in the thigh from point blank range with a .45 ACP Hardball bullet. It didn't exit. And as far as I know it didn't hit the femur. He initally refused transport to the hospital and was basically unphased by the whole thing other than disbelief.
I ran a call on a guy 20 years ago, that had been shot in the thigh from point blank range with a .45 ACP Hardball bullet. It didn't exit. And as far as I know it didn't hit the femur. He initally refused transport to the hospital and was basically unphased by the whole thing other than disbelief.
I have worked several years in trauma surgery in a level I trauma center and most of the gunshot wounds that make it to surgery are of smaller caliber . Once I saw a 45acp round in an arm near the elbow (or what was the elbow). The guy (had just been minding his business, sitting on his front porch reading his Bible when some dudes just shot him
) The bullet broke his arm and dropped him to the ground while the 9mm slug passed thru his upper torso and out (missing all vital organs, aorta and spine) Folks, that's amazing! Once again it is generally about bullet placement... either bullet could have killed him... BTW the young man was about 140#
) The bullet broke his arm and dropped him to the ground while the 9mm slug passed thru his upper torso and out (missing all vital organs, aorta and spine) Folks, that's amazing! Once again it is generally about bullet placement... either bullet could have killed him... BTW the young man was about 140#Mil Novecientos Once
Member
That's what I think too. Hardball has been used for many, many years in countless gunfights with great succes. Last month a guy here in Puerto Rico was shot 4 times in the torso and arms with UMC ball, none of the bullets exit the body. Shooting distance was about 4-5 yds. BTW, witness said that he dropped after the second shot and he died on the spot.
Sometimes I carry modern JHP and sometimes I carry Hardball. Accuracy is final, there is no magic bullet.
During the six years I was the chief firearms instructor we only had one shooting that didn't result in the suspect's death. That one involved a shot to the upper leg. He too was stopped. None of the shootings resulted in through and through penetration of the body cavety. I can't report on "one shot stops" as most times two or three shots were fired in rapid succession and no one could tell which shot "stopped" the assailant.
Probably because gelatin is uniform in consistancy, while the body varries in density and structure (muscle is quite different than organs).
On those shootings where the subject was hit from the front in the chest cavity, the bullet usually stopped just under the skin on the back. One of the County's medical examiners I spoke with said the skin was tough enough to stop the bullet after it had lost most of its velocity passing through the body cavity.
PS: Our issue ammo was Federal Match 230g Ball. It was very consistant and reliable but not the hottest ball out there. Average velocities always came in at just over 800 fps from 5" barreled Government Model's.
J Miller
Member
This is all very interesting to me.
I've never been in a gun fight, frome either end, thankfully.
I have however shot many rounds of .45 ACP ball, and .45 Colt 255gr lead.
History of military successes with these rounds, and the insistance of using JHP's by their supporters seems confusing to me.
Hearing these real world reports of hard balls use just reinforces the lessons of history.
I've never been in a gun fight, frome either end, thankfully.
I have however shot many rounds of .45 ACP ball, and .45 Colt 255gr lead.
History of military successes with these rounds, and the insistance of using JHP's by their supporters seems confusing to me.
Hearing these real world reports of hard balls use just reinforces the lessons of history.
Mil Novecientos Once
Member
This issue has been discussed extensevily on the 1911 forum. This is a linlk to previous discussions on the subject.
http://www.1911forum.com/forums/search.php?s=&action=showresults&searchid=541221&sortby=&sortorder=
http://www.1911forum.com/forums/search.php?s=&action=showresults&searchid=541307&sortby=&sortorder=
http://www.1911forum.com/forums/search.php?s=&action=showresults&searchid=541221&sortby=&sortorder=
http://www.1911forum.com/forums/search.php?s=&action=showresults&searchid=541307&sortby=&sortorder=
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RecoilRob
Member
It is refreshing to read actual cases of .45 ball NOT over-penetrating as has been widely reported in the gun rags. My opinion is that "over-penetration" is largely a myth that is kept alive by people wishing to use it as a defense when they miss a BG and hit an innocent. I have asked on other forums for an example of a SINGLE round fired, COM that actually overpenetrated and hurt a bystander. So far, no takers.
The examples much written about by gun hacks seem to always involve multiple rounds fired. But, of course, the "round that hit the old woman was the one that hit the BG, not one of my six clean misses!"
Sure, if you just nick someone, the slug will keep going. But I never believed that a COM hit on a man would unduly endanger the entire populace behind them. Rob
The examples much written about by gun hacks seem to always involve multiple rounds fired. But, of course, the "round that hit the old woman was the one that hit the BG, not one of my six clean misses!"
Sure, if you just nick someone, the slug will keep going. But I never believed that a COM hit on a man would unduly endanger the entire populace behind them. Rob
clubsoda22
member
hardball doesn't overpenetrate because bodies tend to be more dense than gelatin, in fact, if hardball enters the chest cavity it tends to yaw and bounce around the ribcage doing a lot of damage...the thing is, so do .45 hollowpoints, they just do a lot more damage.
Lone_Gunman
Member
LOL
Don't Underestimate .45 Ball Ammo
Charlie Fraser was called back, in 1990 I believe it was, to give input in the development of the SOCOM .45. He told me that the trauma surgeons all gave testimony that when a person was hit in the chest area with .45 230gr ball, it was hard to save their life because of the damage it did. This is not from shooting theory but surgeons who worked on people who had been shot. According to these testimonies, a .45 230gr bullet going at around 830 fps does massive damage when it hits the human torso.
Charlie Fraser was called back, in 1990 I believe it was, to give input in the development of the SOCOM .45. He told me that the trauma surgeons all gave testimony that when a person was hit in the chest area with .45 230gr ball, it was hard to save their life because of the damage it did. This is not from shooting theory but surgeons who worked on people who had been shot. According to these testimonies, a .45 230gr bullet going at around 830 fps does massive damage when it hits the human torso.
Vern Humphrey
Member
All of this shows why I consider the "One Shot Stop" to be the wrong criteria to use.
All training programs I know of teach firing multiple shots -- and who with any sense would stop shooting while the opposition was still standing and trying to kill him?
Then there are other problems -- what is a "torso hit?" Would a bullet that passed along the ribs count? Is a hit in the heart or spine to be equated with one that doesn't touch a vital organ?
Do we discount head shots?
And so on.
I think the only VALID measure is stops/encounters.
This rolls up all the judgement questions and makes for a simple, objective evaluation. And the results are useful -- because it answers the critical question, "What gun/ammunition gives the best chance of WINNING?"
It allows us to discriminate between those guns which have great terminal effect, but are hard to shoot, and those that may have less oomph, but are controlable and allow multiple hits.
Sanow once asked me, "If we follow your criteria, and it turns out the .25 automatic is tops, would you say the .25 automatic is the best gun to carry?"
I said, "Yes."
All training programs I know of teach firing multiple shots -- and who with any sense would stop shooting while the opposition was still standing and trying to kill him?
Then there are other problems -- what is a "torso hit?" Would a bullet that passed along the ribs count? Is a hit in the heart or spine to be equated with one that doesn't touch a vital organ?
Do we discount head shots?
And so on.
I think the only VALID measure is stops/encounters.
This rolls up all the judgement questions and makes for a simple, objective evaluation. And the results are useful -- because it answers the critical question, "What gun/ammunition gives the best chance of WINNING?"
It allows us to discriminate between those guns which have great terminal effect, but are hard to shoot, and those that may have less oomph, but are controlable and allow multiple hits.
Sanow once asked me, "If we follow your criteria, and it turns out the .25 automatic is tops, would you say the .25 automatic is the best gun to carry?"
I said, "Yes."
MrAcheson
Member
If you are going to measure the relative stopping power of different ammunition, you have to try to mitigate the effect of all the other variables in the system. This is at least part of the reason why M&S only uses torso shots and such. You need to establish your control variables procedurally or the data means nothing or can be skewed by things you didn't measure.
If I was going to try to establish shot statistics for firearms effectiveness, I would have 2. The first is percentage of stops/encounter involving bullet impact. (This would rule out "the idea of gun" stops and the warning shot stops.) The second is the number of shots until stop. I think those numbers would be much more meaningful than the percentage of one shot stops.
.45 hardball is big and blunt. It's also heavy. It should maintain momentum while causing a massive entry wound. As with any other round, its effectiveness dimenishes with distance. Other variables, such as barrel length and even cartridge manufacturer should be taken into account as well.
I agree with everyone who has stated that the overpentetration of .45 hardball is a myth. I think part of the reason for this myth is that a .45 hardball will keep going and going through walls and such, but I have no real facts to back that up. I generally beleive that a chunk of lead going at 800 fps when it leaves the muzzle will tend to flatten out upon impact assuming the impact is close enough that the round has sufficient velocity. As the round flattens, it will expand. Another thing, the bigger the round, the more stuff it will hit when it enters a body.
I wouldn't hesitate to carry hardball if there's any question at all about the feedability of hollowpoints through the weapon in question.
I go by the rule of thumb, shoot the biggest caliber you feel comfortable with and can wield accurately.
I do believe that there are better rounds and better guns than the .45/1911, but for self defence, I'd feel more comfortable with a high-quality firearm of battle-proven design than I do with some of these high-tech polimer guns chambered in whatever the latest fad is.
I agree with everyone who has stated that the overpentetration of .45 hardball is a myth. I think part of the reason for this myth is that a .45 hardball will keep going and going through walls and such, but I have no real facts to back that up. I generally beleive that a chunk of lead going at 800 fps when it leaves the muzzle will tend to flatten out upon impact assuming the impact is close enough that the round has sufficient velocity. As the round flattens, it will expand. Another thing, the bigger the round, the more stuff it will hit when it enters a body.
I wouldn't hesitate to carry hardball if there's any question at all about the feedability of hollowpoints through the weapon in question.
I go by the rule of thumb, shoot the biggest caliber you feel comfortable with and can wield accurately.
I do believe that there are better rounds and better guns than the .45/1911, but for self defence, I'd feel more comfortable with a high-quality firearm of battle-proven design than I do with some of these high-tech polimer guns chambered in whatever the latest fad is.
Vern Humphrey
Member
Quote:
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If you are going to measure the relative stopping power of different ammunition, you have to try to mitigate the effect of all the other variables in the system.
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But we don't shoot just ammunition. We shoot the whole system, gun and ammunition. And the question should be, "What do winners use?"
Concepts like "torso hit" are simply too difficult to apply -- they require too much in the way of a judgement call. Similoarly, "one shot stop" rules out all shootings with multiple hits -- and we KNOW multiple hits are more effective.
On the other hand, stops/encounters gives us objective standards -- we don't have to agonize over where the hits were, how many shots were fired, and so on. It leads us directly to the answer we want in the real world -- "What do winners use?"
---------------------------------------------------
If you are going to measure the relative stopping power of different ammunition, you have to try to mitigate the effect of all the other variables in the system.
----------------------------------------------------
But we don't shoot just ammunition. We shoot the whole system, gun and ammunition. And the question should be, "What do winners use?"
Concepts like "torso hit" are simply too difficult to apply -- they require too much in the way of a judgement call. Similoarly, "one shot stop" rules out all shootings with multiple hits -- and we KNOW multiple hits are more effective.
On the other hand, stops/encounters gives us objective standards -- we don't have to agonize over where the hits were, how many shots were fired, and so on. It leads us directly to the answer we want in the real world -- "What do winners use?"
MrAcheson
Member
Since the "system" includes the individual you can't ever get statistical data on this. Even if you just look at gun and ammunition you still aren't going to get the necessary data for any kind of comparison in most cases. If the data isn't out there it isn't out there.
If it hits the torso you include it, if not then not. Not hard. You have to screen for hit location as its effect is much much stronger than bullet size/weight/etc so it will definitely skew your data.
Yup. I agree. Technically you can "power up" one stop numbers to get multiple hit estimates, but its not a good way to do it. The OSS concept is flawed.
No it doesn't. Your lumping a lots of variables into one ratio and calling it good. You can't aggregate that much and get anything meaningful. You neglect hit placement and tactics and a whole bunch of things and call it the "gun ammo combo effectiveness". If you are going to examine end effects, you have to examine end effects using procedures which screen them from others as much as possible.
MrAcheson
Member
I agree with this, but it may not be a myth for other calibers. .45 is a slow fat bullet. A skinny, fast bullet like 9mm hardball may over-penetrate a lot more. Generalizing here may be foolhardy.
greyhound
Member
What about something like Cor-Bon Pow-R-Ball, which claims to have the feedability(?) of FMJ with the expansion of JHP?
165 gr at 1250/fps and I have never had any problem with it feeding in my P97; obviously have no real world experience as to penetration/expansion...
165 gr at 1250/fps and I have never had any problem with it feeding in my P97; obviously have no real world experience as to penetration/expansion...
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