9mm: Underrated underdog or merely underpowered reject?
- Thread starter Amadeus
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Am I reading this right? That sounds like it would rival/mimic the performance of the .357 magnum 125 grain JHP. Yes? No?
CZF
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What the freakin 45 o philes tend to miss is the fact that outside of the USA
very few people use 45 ACP unless they are well off and can afford to buy ammo and 1911s. South Africa is known for it's .45 shooters. They are the
guys out scrounging the range for brass.
The ACP has a colourful history, just not the optimum caliber for overseas work.some folks are even restricted to caliber and ammo,,having no choice
in the matter.
A Cz75 or in the case of the article a P-35 is what you will find to be a common handgun. Your Glocks are found in 9mm and in one case that i know of are refurbed USA police trade-ins.
Alot of folks think that Shot Placement is paramount to caliber. I was once
a 45 freak but a man named Marshall opened my eyes abit. The +P+ 9mm
loads started dropping bad guys left and right!
Modern bullet technology has improved the 9mm to
be an adequete round in the minds of many. Low recoil and
high capacity make it a favorite, whether on contract or
stateside.
Everyone has a favorite caliber. the 9mm just seems to get better each year.
very few people use 45 ACP unless they are well off and can afford to buy ammo and 1911s. South Africa is known for it's .45 shooters. They are the
guys out scrounging the range for brass.
The ACP has a colourful history, just not the optimum caliber for overseas work.some folks are even restricted to caliber and ammo,,having no choice
in the matter.
A Cz75 or in the case of the article a P-35 is what you will find to be a common handgun. Your Glocks are found in 9mm and in one case that i know of are refurbed USA police trade-ins.
Alot of folks think that Shot Placement is paramount to caliber. I was once
a 45 freak but a man named Marshall opened my eyes abit. The +P+ 9mm
loads started dropping bad guys left and right!
Modern bullet technology has improved the 9mm to
be an adequete round in the minds of many. Low recoil and
high capacity make it a favorite, whether on contract or
stateside.
Everyone has a favorite caliber. the 9mm just seems to get better each year.
Amadeus: Double Tap 125gr Gold Dot: Velocity: 1600fps / 4" Ruger GP-100
Muzzle Energy: 710 ft. lbs.
Muzzle Energy: 710 ft. lbs.
Cheaper to practice with, a solid stopper with high quality self-defense ammo, easier to shoot with less recoil, quicker to get off well aimed 2nd and 3rd shots, and if you can get them, high capacity magazines. The 9mm is a winner.
Would love to get that Beretta 92 back that I sold years ago when money was tight.
Would love to get that Beretta 92 back that I sold years ago when money was tight.
Lots of very good weapons are chambered for 9mm. Ammo is available all over the world. Accurate. Reliable.Effective. Economical. If I couldn't have my Kimber Custom Defender II .45 ACP, I'd probably carry a 9mm CZ.
I have done some extensive informal penetration and expansion tests with fmj and hp ammo and have no doubt the 9mm is more than adequate in most situations. Shot placement is key. I carry my 9mms with confidence. To each his own, but I would not want to be shot with any of the popular calibers!
I like it because it is inexpensive and widely available. I even reload it.
I like it because it is inexpensive and widely available. I even reload it.
The 9mm round is underrated. I have done extensive informal penetration and expansion tests with fmj and hp ammo and have no doubt the 9mm is more than adequate in most situations. Shot placement is key. I carry my 9mms with confidence. To each his own, but I would not want to be shot with any of the popular calibers!
I like it because it is inexpensive and widely available. I even reload it.
I like it because it is inexpensive and widely available. I even reload it.
MachIVshooter
Member
9x19 is a good general purpose round, IMO. One that is jack of all trades, master of none. It is a good plinker, but more costly than .22. It is an adequate SD round, but not on par with 10mm/.45/.357 mag. It's primary attributes are the sheer number of guns chambered for it, coupled with being the least expensive centerfire pistol ammo out there. I own 7 9mm guns and shoot them all frequently. I have never fired at a human being, but they have killed many rabbits, praire dogs, etc. I keep a ton of 9mm FMJ ammo on hand because it is cheap and packs easy. In a SHTF scenario, 9mm would mostly be used as a suppression/cover round. More effective cartridges would be used when the threat is exposed.
I feel adequately armed carrying a 9mm, but much prefer my 10mm. At 791 ft/lbs, it is nearly double the power of a +P+ 9mm. I have developed 9mm loads that produce over 500 ft/lbs, but the only way to acheive such velocities was using 90 gr. JHP's, which are too lightly constructed to penetrate well at mach 1.5.
I feel adequately armed carrying a 9mm, but much prefer my 10mm. At 791 ft/lbs, it is nearly double the power of a +P+ 9mm. I have developed 9mm loads that produce over 500 ft/lbs, but the only way to acheive such velocities was using 90 gr. JHP's, which are too lightly constructed to penetrate well at mach 1.5.
9mm:
I carry it for defense. I shoot it for fun. It's made me a better shooter by being cheap to practice with.
999
I carry it for defense. I shoot it for fun. It's made me a better shooter by being cheap to practice with.
999
45 ACP Not as Common
You're talking about me. I carry .45 ACP whenever possible.
BUT. I keep a 9mm in a lockbox in my truck, and another in my Bug-out-Kit for the simple reason that the ammo is so common and readily available. I also have some .45 ACP in the kit, but only a few boxes. If the SHTF to the point that we end up on foot, I can't carry much ammo of either caliber, but I will bring along the 9mm pistol for the simple reason that when we get to wherever we're going, it will likely be much easier/cheaper to restock on 9mm than .45ACP. (but I'm not going to pitch the .45 either!)
You're talking about me. I carry .45 ACP whenever possible.
BUT. I keep a 9mm in a lockbox in my truck, and another in my Bug-out-Kit for the simple reason that the ammo is so common and readily available. I also have some .45 ACP in the kit, but only a few boxes. If the SHTF to the point that we end up on foot, I can't carry much ammo of either caliber, but I will bring along the 9mm pistol for the simple reason that when we get to wherever we're going, it will likely be much easier/cheaper to restock on 9mm than .45ACP. (but I'm not going to pitch the .45 either!)
Actually, some of us here in the US cannot afford .45 acp either, not just elsewhere in the world.
I like .45s, but I can only afford to practice with .38special/.9mm most of the time. I cannot afford the higher calibers.
I like .45s, but I can only afford to practice with .38special/.9mm most of the time. I cannot afford the higher calibers.
AirForceShooter
Member
real world experience:
both the .45 and the 9mm will kill people.
both will stop people.
both are reliable.
there's nothing wrong with a 9mm. And if you're in a fire firgt the big mags do come in handy.
But I still like my .45 best.
AFS
both the .45 and the 9mm will kill people.
both will stop people.
both are reliable.
there's nothing wrong with a 9mm. And if you're in a fire firgt the big mags do come in handy.
But I still like my .45 best.
AFS
I shoot the 9mm most of the time. The #1 complaint I get from most .45 shooters is, "The bullwits cost too much". My best friend rants and raves about his 1911 .45, but almost everytime we go shoot, he brings a 9mm .
By the way, I carry a 9mm, loaded with Winchester Ranger 127 grain +P+ SXT, but I shoot all the 9mm Blazer I can get my hands on for practice.
Just my .02,
LeonCarr
.By the way, I carry a 9mm, loaded with Winchester Ranger 127 grain +P+ SXT, but I shoot all the 9mm Blazer I can get my hands on for practice.
Just my .02,
LeonCarr
Auto glass??
How does the 9mm perform as a stopper after passing through car glass (windshields, etc)?
How does the 9mm perform as a stopper after passing through car glass (windshields, etc)?
SO how is the recoil on those 9s shooting +p+ ammo - does it get alot more intense? Does it start getting near typical standard .45 recoil?
To me it's still the best performance/recoil/cost/# of shots compromise out there.
A USP Compact loaded with Ranger T 127gr +P+ gives me 14 shots on tap, and the recoil and snap are still way less than .45ACP.
If I had to go into combat, 9mm would be my choice, capacity rules !
A USP Compact loaded with Ranger T 127gr +P+ gives me 14 shots on tap, and the recoil and snap are still way less than .45ACP.
If I had to go into combat, 9mm would be my choice, capacity rules !
shield20,
The 9mm +P+ ammo in a standard size handgun is not bad, about like shooting .38 +P in a 4" revolver. A little louder report, a little more muzzle rise, but little or no increase in felt recoil over standard pressure 9mm. In alloy frame or compact handguns, the 9mm +P+ will get your attention, but is still controllable with practice.
My everyday gun is a Glock 17, and +P+ ammo has a little more muzzle rise and louder report, but nothing else.
IMO 9mm +P+ is much more controllable than 230 ball .45.
Just my .02,
LeonCarr
The 9mm +P+ ammo in a standard size handgun is not bad, about like shooting .38 +P in a 4" revolver. A little louder report, a little more muzzle rise, but little or no increase in felt recoil over standard pressure 9mm. In alloy frame or compact handguns, the 9mm +P+ will get your attention, but is still controllable with practice.
My everyday gun is a Glock 17, and +P+ ammo has a little more muzzle rise and louder report, but nothing else.
IMO 9mm +P+ is much more controllable than 230 ball .45.
Just my .02,
LeonCarr
wow! must not be a lot of legal calibers then! They go off bullet diameter right? then the obvious conclusion would be a load of other ammos would be illegal. Even big ones like 8mm mauser, 30 - 06, 7mm mag etc.
or do they go off grain weight?
Muzzle energy.
9mm isn't legal here in Colorado for big game. 41 mag, 44 mag 357 maximum etc are.
We have BIG deer here too.
I doubt ANY game warden would bust any of us for offering up a 'coup de grace' with any handgun we own... which is all I did with that deer, it was wounded and struggling and was kicking... wasn't sure I could hit it in the head the way it was moving to put it down, didn't want to shoot it with the rifle at point blank range. So I fired one 9mm through the boiler room and that was all it took.
9mm isn't legal here in Colorado for big game. 41 mag, 44 mag 357 maximum etc are.
We have BIG deer here too.
I doubt ANY game warden would bust any of us for offering up a 'coup de grace' with any handgun we own... which is all I did with that deer, it was wounded and struggling and was kicking... wasn't sure I could hit it in the head the way it was moving to put it down, didn't want to shoot it with the rifle at point blank range. So I fired one 9mm through the boiler room and that was all it took.
Oh god, if it ain't the AWD vs. RWD debates on the car boards, it's the caliber debates on the gun boards 
Git R Done ...
"I know that it can penetrate 12 inches or more of deer."
Just curious, but in what state is it now legal to hunt deer with a 9mm pistol?
Must have been a very small deer.
Are you certain you didn't mistake a dead poodle with fake horns for venison? Possibly some mischievous fratboys pulled a fast one on the good Doctor? Hmmm?
Of course, taking down 4-legged critters or 2-legged predators has never been a problem for the 10mm AUTO.
"I know that it can penetrate 12 inches or more of deer."
Just curious, but in what state is it now legal to hunt deer with a 9mm pistol? Must have been a very small deer.
Are you certain you didn't mistake a dead poodle with fake horns for venison? Possibly some mischievous fratboys pulled a fast one on the good Doctor? Hmmm?
Of course, taking down 4-legged critters or 2-legged predators has never been a problem for the 10mm AUTO.
Mimic
T'was asked:
>Am I reading this right? That sounds like it would rival/mimic the performance of the .357 magnum 125 grain JHP. Yes? No?<
*************************
Well...Not the full-house 125 grain .357 loading, which advertises 1450 fps from a 4-inch barrel...and actually produces between 1380 and 1420, depending on the gun. I have a 4-inch 681 Smith that'll go 1420 and 1435 average for ten rounds with Federal and Remington respectively. When the same ammo is fired in my 3-inch M-13, those figures drop about 50 fps across the board with one HELLUVA muzzle blast.
125 at 1250 is on par with Remington's attenuated.357/125 loading that's advertised at 1280 fps from a 4-inch barrel...and probably averages about 1200 or so in the real world. I wouldn't exactly call that wimpy performance, but the exposed lead on the revolver bullet would probably tend to expand more violently, so the effectiveness of the 9mm round likely wouldn't be as dramatic in gelatin or wetpack newspaper. Then again...I've never been attacked by either of those.
T'was asked:
>Am I reading this right? That sounds like it would rival/mimic the performance of the .357 magnum 125 grain JHP. Yes? No?<
*************************
Well...Not the full-house 125 grain .357 loading, which advertises 1450 fps from a 4-inch barrel...and actually produces between 1380 and 1420, depending on the gun. I have a 4-inch 681 Smith that'll go 1420 and 1435 average for ten rounds with Federal and Remington respectively. When the same ammo is fired in my 3-inch M-13, those figures drop about 50 fps across the board with one HELLUVA muzzle blast.
125 at 1250 is on par with Remington's attenuated.357/125 loading that's advertised at 1280 fps from a 4-inch barrel...and probably averages about 1200 or so in the real world. I wouldn't exactly call that wimpy performance, but the exposed lead on the revolver bullet would probably tend to expand more violently, so the effectiveness of the 9mm round likely wouldn't be as dramatic in gelatin or wetpack newspaper. Then again...I've never been attacked by either of those.
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