A 1911 idea. Will I be banned for this?

[BCRider]

So... I got an idea which may get the 1911 faithful sputtering up their lunch.....

A classic US 1911 chambered in the classic Russian 7.62x25. West meets East.

Whatcha all think?

The only fly in the ointment I can think of is that the rounds might be too long to fit in a magazine which still fits in the magwell.

 

[1911Tuner]

I think you'd have a real problem getting it to cycle the action unless you made it straight blowback operation...and then it wouldn't be a 1911 any more.

 

[rcmodel]

http://www.jgsales.com/7.62x25-toka...m-or-38-super.-new,-by-j-g-sales.-p-5619.html

Be aware that the .38 Super mag will only hold six rounds.

And once you load it, plan on shooting it.
As the loaded round is too long to come out of the ejection port.

rc

 

[Vern Humphrey]

I count 6 rounds per magazine on that video, and note that they say the magazine will hold "4 to 8" rounds -- indicating you may experience feeding problems.

 

[56hawk]

I think you'd have a real problem getting it to cycle the action unless you made it straight blowback operation...and then it wouldn't be a 1911 any more.

Why do you say that? All the pistols I know of in 7.62x25 are recoil operated.

 

[1911Tuner]

Why do you say that? All the pistols I know of in 7.62x25 are recoil operated.

In a smaller pistol with a lot less mass in the slide.

Calculations show that the standard Tokarev cartridge (85 grains at 1250 fps) produces just over half the momentum of standard .45 hardball, and 3/4ths that of 9mm/124/1100. You might get it to work. Reliably? That's a tossup.

 

[56hawk]

In a smaller pistol with a lot less mass in the slide.

Calculations show that the standard Tokarev cartridge (85 grains at 1250 fps) produces just over half the momentum of standard .45 hardball, and 3/4ths that of 9mm/124/1100. You might get it to work. Reliably? That's a tossup.

1250 fps? That's some pretty light loads. Prvi advertises 1722 fps. http://www.midwayusa.com/product/761742/prvi-partizan-ammunition-762x25mm-tokarev-85-grain-full-metal-jacket-box-of-50 I load mine on the weak side at only 1450 fps since I also shoot it out of a C96 Mauser.

I'll have to weigh them when I get home, but I wouldn't be surprised if the CZ 52 slide weighed more than the 1911. Besides it's not that hard to lighten the slide or recoil springs in a 1911, but I doubt it would be necessary.

 

[el Godfather]

I will buy it for sure!

 

[2wheels]

.38 Super 1911s are awesome. .22LR "1911s" are great for training. Even 9mm 1911s are ok... (Ok I lied, my EMP 9 is awesome). And that .22TCM 1911 looks interesting.

So I think we 1911 faithful can live with a 7.62x25 1911. I'd own one.

I was gonna mention that conversion kit, but RC beat me to it. Never talked to anyone who owns one.

 

[1911Tuner]

*shrug*

Give it a try. Shouldn't be too hard. A slide with 9mm breechface dimensions and a barrel chambered for it.

I remember a 9mm round called the BAT. (Blitz Action Trauma) that consisted of a copper bullet with a huge hollow cavity and a hole drilled to blow off a plastic nose cap that weighed 85 grains driven to the furious velocity of 1650 fps. A friend of mine tried it in a 9mm Commander, and had short cycle issues until he dropped to an 8-pound recoil spring...and then he had failures to go to battery.

1700 fps? Forsooth! What are the pressure levels on that?

 

[AK103K]

Nothing new under the sun. Seems the VC beat you to it..

http://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b=5&f=49&t=104705

 

[Legion489]

Been there, done that. Works OK if you do it right and use a 9mm/.38 Super slide. Got the idea from a friend who had a VC made copy in 7.62x25. There are all sorts of cartridges sold overseas too. Colt made (makes?) a .30 Luger model for Europe, along with several other cartridges, but they are not sold in the US for whatever reason.

 

[Mizar]

Tuner, a TT33 slide weights about the same as a commander slide. The muzzle velocity of a standard Russian 85 grains ball ammo is about 1400 fps. A pistol in that caliber definitely needs a locking system for the barrel - Russian and Czech engineers (CZ52) are not stupid... Astra 400 is a straight blowback and the recoil of this pistol is not pleasant at all. Not to mention the ridiculously heavy recoil spring. I remember a conversation with you here on THR when you calculated the recoil impulse of 7.62x25 to be roughly the same as .38 Super.

Boris

P.S. I highly doubt that the mentioned BAT round gives 1650 fps in a commander length barrel - there is not enough room for the powder in a 9x19 case.

 

[bluethunder1962]

I would buy one if it was from a good maker. I have thought the same thing with a revolver. I am not a gunsmith but it should be easy to do.

 

[jj1962hemi]

I'm a fan of this round and would be interested in more pistols of any kind in 7.62x25!

 

[WardenWolf]

I think you might need .38 Super or maybe 10mm to get the proper length, but you may be able to make it work. Mizar is correct. The Tokarev is pretty much identical in size and weight to a Combat Commander. There is nothing technically preventing the round from cycling the action. Only the length of the round creates a problem.

 

[rcmodel]

IMO: People won't be nearly as interested once all the cheap surplus ammo runs out.

rc

 

[BCRider]

Well, I guess my relative newbiness to shooting is showing. Despite having read all I can find on gun lore since I started out about 4 years back I'd never come across a 1911 in this chambering. Now it seems they are about as common as corn in the summer here in Chilliwack... And trust me... that is COMMON! ! !....

We now return you to the usual battles over 9mm vs .45acp....

 

[1911Tuner]

I remember a conversation with you here on THR when you calculated the recoil impulse of 7.62x25 to be roughly the same as .38 Super.

It's not just the recoil impulse that determines it. It's more about the momentum, and the momentum generated by an 85-grain bullet is iffy.

Just going by the photos, the Tokarev's slide looks to be dimensionally close to the High Power's.

A guy over on 1911.org has been tinkering with a Commander-length 1911 chambered for .380 Auto. Even loaded to proof-level pressures, he can barely get the slide to move...and even with no recoil spring in the gun, it won't make it more than about 3/4ths of the way.

It may be doable with a 90 or 100-grain bullet loaded to 1500 fps, but that pesky question that keeps me from wasting time and money just keeps popping up.

"What is it for?"

If the object of the exercise is simply to see if it can be done, then by all means...carry on, and keep us posted. It'll be interesting.

You might be able to get a few pointers from Wild Bill Caldwell over on Pistolsmith.com. He's been tinkering with light, small caliber, warp speed cartridges in the 1911 for several years, and his efforts have been frustrating. He's blown a few magazines out the magwell, and the last I heard, he'd pretty much given up on the idea.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Not enough momentum to cycle the slide? So go to a floating chamber.

For those who just tuned in, the floating chamber was Colt's answer to the problem of making a .22 LR cycle a M1911 slide.

 

[Dentite]

IMO: People won't be nearly as interested once all the cheap surplus ammo runs out.

rc

Which was about a year ago unfortunately. You might some old stuff floating around but nothing like the nice Yugo stuff that was $4 for 70 about two years ago.

 

[rcmodel]

My personal view is, it would be better to try to make a 1911 out of a Tokarev.
Then to try to make a Tokarev out of a 1911.

Better sights, some trigger work, new grips, and a positive safety would almost do it.
At least the magazines would be long enough to hold the ammo.

rc

 

[Jim Watson]

I've read most of the material on the subject.
If four in a magazine are enough, fine, it actually feeds, fires, AND FUNCTIONS.
The conversion apparently functions fully loaded if you deep seat and recrimp the bullets so they fit a .38 Super magazine. Of course those nasty craters in the primers might be trying to tell you something.

If you want the round and not just the opportunity to plink with Iron Curtain Surplus, handloads with blunt bullets have no drawbacks.

But at that point, I'd go with a 9x23 and light bullets at screaming velocity.

 

[SharpsDressedMan]

I'd like to see it, only necked down to .224. That would be a great varmint round.

 

[bigfatdave]

I'd like to see it, only necked down to .224.

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2011/11/foghorn/ria-introduces-first-production-22-tcm-firearm/

http://the-zombie-hunter.blogspot.com/2011/08/small-bullet-bit-hit-new-armscor-22-tcm.html

Armscor makes it, they call it the TCM (Tuason / Craig Micromagnum) and markets it here in the US under the Rock Island Armory banner.
It is a pretty slick design, only limited by a single source of magazines and ammunition, which would be a deal-breaker for me except that it comes with a 9x19 conversion kit in the box, which is RIA solid and even runs steel-case junk ammo.

So buy one, and order a bunch of ammo ... I'd like for the TCM round to not die like so many wildcat cartridges, and I'd like to see more variety in ammo types in this chambering.