A gun law that actually makes sense

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Crimes created to punish the item rather than an offense that an item is used in do not make good sense.
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I assume you mean laws created. I agree 100%. Once again none of what you posted has anything to do with project exile. PERIOD.

Right now anywhere in the US you can be charged under federal law for the crimes listed in project exile. Anywhere. CA, OH, IL, DC. Anywhere. In vast majority of those cases the criminal is NEVER prosecuted.

All project exile does is notify the feds, give them the evidence collected, and put an agreement in place that VA will assist feds in the prosecution (i.e not getting in the way).

It is already a federal felony for a felon to possess a weapon. Everyday hundreds of felons are arrested with a firearm in their possession. Very few of them ever get prosecuted in federal court. Why not keep violent felons locked away for an extra 5 years?

Maybe they will not use a firearm next time. Maybe they will but if they do then they get an extra 5 years in fed prison (on top of their existing charge).
 
Why focus on "gun crime"?

Why not "knife crime", "hammer crime", "screwdriver crime", "rock crime", "fist crime", etc.?

There should be a crackdown on violent crime, and a total revamp of our turn-stile criminal "justice" system.
 
Whether we like it or not guns are the focus of many anti-crime efforts. I don't have a problem with extra time being added to any criminal who uses any kind of a weapon in the commision of a crime.
 
"I'm sure this law will swiftly apply to anybody who gets caught using their firearm for anything other than shooting at the range - your concealed gun that is briefly not concealed; your handgun that you accidentally stored the wrong way in your car; etc."

Project Exile started here in 1997.

You're sure, but you have no facts. I have yet to hear about a case anything similar to the one you mentioned.

And an unconcealed gun is nothing more than open carry. And that's legal here. Worried about storing your gun improperly in your car in Virginia? Leave it in plain view on the seat or dash - it's legal here.

John in Richmond
 
I don't think that anything, law or what ever, that the NRA, brady bafoons and batfe are in agreement on is good for anybody. The first one compromised our rights away and the second two we know are against us.
 
It is already a federal felony for a felon to possess a weapon. Everyday hundreds of felons are arrested with a firearm in their possession. Very few of them ever get prosecuted in federal court. Why not keep violent felons locked away for an extra 5 years?

Maybe they will not use a firearm next time. Maybe they will but if they do then they get an extra 5 years in fed prison (on top of their existing charge).
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Let me tell you a little story.

Years ago I lived down the street from this very pretty, sweet young girl. She was one of those people that was able to make everyone at a gathering have a good time.
I was not her boyfriend and never dated her, but I knew her well.
Well one day her boyfriend who had been acting fishy was found by her traveling around with another woman.
So she assumed he was cheating on her and got very upset about it.

She invited him over later on, hit herself in the face to create marks and bruising, and called the police. She said he had hit her, and that she was scared and wanted to press charges. They took pictures of her injuries for evidence and a statement. He of course denied doing anything.
He was arrested, and she broke up with him for cheating and stuck with her story. I don't know if he spent much time in jail, but he was arrested and charged.
She was quite happy with herself for teaching him a lesson, which is how I learned the details.

Now prior to the Lautenberg Amendment that was not something that resulted in a lifetime prohibition, it was just like all other misdemeanor battery charges.
Now though it is the same as a felony as it applies to firearms. Such a person would be commiting a felony gun crime by ever being in possession of a firearm again.
Consider that domestic disturbances are where police in many regions spend a significant portion of thier time. Many states have mandatory arrests laws if violence is even suspected, even if neither individual wishes to press charges.
Consider that many divorces are messy, as are many child custody cases. Consider that many resentments exist between many ex's.
Consider that many lawyers encourage restraining orders and anything else to try to gain leverage in a case, even against partners posing no threat etc
Consider that claims of various abuses during marriages, or to paint the other individual in a bad light to gain some advantage in court for division of assets or child custody are common.

Consider that many minor felonies exist.


I am sorry, I just cannot champion severe punishment of anyone that violates any law if a firearm is in any way involved.
I cannot champion mandatory sentencing, tying judges hands even if circumstances in a situation are felt by the judge to deserve a lesser amount of time.

I believe self defense is a right of every individual. I believe that when many people and potential predators will have firearms that a firearm becomes necessary for self defense. I do not see that as a bad thing, because I believe firearms are a great equalizer giving women, elderly, disabled, etc individuals equality with anyone else with a firearm. They may or may not prevail, but they become more or less equals, which to me sounds like an American ideal.
I therefore cannot support enhancments and extra charges just because a firearm is present. I hope to never become a prohibited person, but I must consider that possibility. I must also consider the ideals America was founded on that made it great.
I am for punishing crime, but to me that does not include special infringements on the RKBA. The only item specificly protected in the entire Bill of Rights by name is in reference to firearms.
If you wish to hand the government and the Bradys extra tools to attack guns because you believe it protects your rights I pity you.
 
Jake & Zoogster... So you think it's okay for a convicted gang-banger or armed robber to walk around with a pistol in his pocket?

You guys are out of your minds.
 
The only item specificly protected in the entire Bill of Rights by name is in reference to firearms.
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I don't agree. The Fourth Amendment specifically protects "houses, papers and effects". That's pretty specific. Technically, the Constitution includes the right to "bear arms", the reference is not quite so specifically "firearms" as you would suggest.

Zoogster's story is heart pulling, but it holds no water with me. Violent persons using deadly weapons (not just guns, ALL deadly weapons) should be dealt with more harshly than others, as long as due process has been fully applied. Due process is as much a part of the Constitution as equality.
 
If you support project EXILE you don't support the 2nd

It's just that simple. Regardless of how you feel about felons and firearms, the following facts remain.

Fact number one:
2A is found in a document intended to limit the powers of the federal government to certain powers listed therein.

Fact number two:
Not only is the power to regulate firearms not granted by said document, These powers are expressly denied in no uncertain terms.

Fact number three:
In denying the federal government these powers, the framers went so far as to spell out why they should never have them.

Fact number four:
Despite knowing the previous facts to be true, the federal government, in a concerted effort to subvert their intention, has granted itself the very powers it has been denied. It has done so through the gross perversion and mutilation of a clause intended to promote trade among the States.

Fact number five:
In order to accomplish this seemingly impossible feat, the federal courts have had to interpret this clause in such a manner that the original intent of the document is NULL AND VOID. (EG) There is nothing that does not affect commerce by these standards and therefore nothing is off limits to the federal government.

Fact number six:
While there may be much debate over who should have guns, there is no room for debate about the fact that it is up to the States to decide any such issue.

Fact number seven:
In knowing the previous facts to be true, the NRA's support of project EXILE is tantamount to TREASON.
 
I don't agree. The Fourth Amendment specifically protects "houses, papers and effects". That's pretty specific. Technically, the Constitution includes the right to "bear arms", the reference is not quite so specifically "firearms" as you would suggest.
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Yet the arms referenced in the discussions are predominantly firearms, and every terrible instrument of the soldier. That is what is meant when speaking of arms.
Further the protection of houses papers and effects is against 'unreasonable' searches and siezures. So it is more about unreasonable searches and siezures, not protecting a specific item. The second is the only one that clearly states that it cannot be infringed on. Not is only subject to 'reasonable' infringements, but "Shall not be infringed".

So yes firearms are the one item absolutely protected. Not protected against unreasonable things, but cannot even be infringed on.

Violent persons using deadly weapons (not just guns, ALL deadly weapons) should be dealt with more harshly than others, as long as due process has been fully applied
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I certainly believe violent individuals commiting violent crimes should be punished harshly for the criminal predatory behavior.
In fact I even stated that. However that is not what these types of legislation are about. That is already the case. Using weapons to commit violence is already against the law, and there is already harsh penalties available for it.

These type of feel good actions are not about that.
They are about giving more tools to government to combat guns, and anything labeled an offense that involves firearms in aboslutely any way. They may use thier discretion to target certain things predominantly, but that is what it is, thier discretion. Do you really believe giving discretion to government to deliver harsh penalties for anything deemed an offense involving a firearm is a good idea? Like they say "by severely punishing all gun crimes, including those as minor as illegal possession." What new types of firearm offenses do you think will exist in the future, perhaps even simple possession of some increasing types of firearms? Well guess under what statutes enhancements can be added? The very type naive gun owners support now to be 'tough on crime' involving firearms.

We soon may have the house, senate, and president of one party? The party that usualy erodes gun rights more quickly. I wonder what new offenses will come into existance.
All those new laws you support now that are extra tough on crimes involving firearms may one day be adding significant time to your sentence for even possessing something that is banned in the future.
 
Again, we have here some people who think the muzzle will always be pointed safely away from them. It's sad to see when basically good people have the law all of a sudden pointing directly at them with ferocity and indiscriminately.

I'll have to agree with Zoogster, there's no reason to make special enhancements specifically for firearms. There are already enhancements in the books for use when a criminal uses a weapon generally.

bigjohnson said:
Jake & Zoogster... So you think it's okay for a convicted gang-banger or armed robber to walk around with a pistol in his pocket?
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No...That was easy.
 
Again, we have here some people who think the muzzle will always be pointed safely away from them. It's sad to see when basically good people have the law all of a sudden pointing directly at them with ferocity and indiscriminately.

I'll have to agree with Zoogster, there's no reason to make special enhancements specifically for firearms. There are already enhancements in the books for use when a criminal uses a weapon generally.
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I guess what you continue (or willingly) fail to see is:
THIS IS NOT A NEW LAW.

Right now on every square foot of the US it is a federal crime for felons to possess a firearm. If you think that is wrong then lobby to change it. Right now if a felon is carrying a firearm in CA, VT, DC, or anywhere they are commiting a crime. Period. Don't like it change the law.

If anything I think this law shows remarkable restraint on the part of Virginians.

9 years ago Richmond, VA was the murder capital of the world (and something like 80%+ of the murders were with handguns).

Think about that for one second:
Richmond had higher murder rate than, Chicago, New York City, DC, Detroit, Los Angelos.

Now we all know what those cities did:
Ban handguns.
Ban high cap magazines.
Stricter licensing.
May Issue vs Shall Issue.
Waiting Periods.
Ban Assualt Weapons.
Weapon Registration.

Did Richmond do any of that? Did they buy into the ban guns = safer hysteria? No. There was plenty of public pressure to do so. Brady was running a campaign showing that VA "loose" gun laws was creating the murder capital of the world.

Brady was painting the picture:
Only way to make Richmond (and America) safer is to get rid of guns.

What did Richmond do (something that none of the other high crime cities tried)?

DING DING DING. HOLD CRIMINALS not the guns accountable.

If you are a felon and you have a firearm you are in violation of federal law. This isn't a new law for VA. This isn't even a new law federally.

The only thing VA did is:
1) Get feds involved. Very few criminals are prosecuted on federal weapon charges. VA set up the funding, procedures, and contacts to ensure 100% of the time a felon w/ gun in VA is prosecuted in federal court. PERIOD. NO exceptions.

2) Take decision out of local DA. DA are on a lot of pressure to cut deals, get people off the streets. Often times dropping the gun possession charge is part of the deal to plea down the murder to homicide or get a robbery w/ the minimum. In VA that simply is NOT POSSIBLE. 100% of time gun possession charge is handled by the feds.

3) Get leverage on criminals. 100% of VIOLENT criminals with a gun are looking at 5 years. No bail. No plea. They can plea to avoid a trial but even w/ please they get not one day less than 5 years. Second offense is 5-10 years. Third offense if 5-20 years. The time is done in fed pen often times hundreds or thousands of miles from VA. 5 years w/ not a single visit (because of time, distance, and cost) is hard time. 5 years without contact of other gang members puts criminals at a disadvantage when they get out.

4) Get the word out. Any criminal in VA is aware of VIRGINA EXILE by now. Billboards, bumper stickers, radio spots. A lot of it is donated advertising. Public Service announcement type stuff. The message is simple enough for low lifes to understand: "If you have a gun it will cost you an extra 5 years. No pleas. No excuses. No exceptions".

Guess what.....................
It worked. Just like CHP it is one of the only programs that worked. Murders in Richmond have fallen 40%. Armed robberies are down something 25%-30%.

So the police got murders under control WITHOUT any gun restrictions. This is a bad thing?

Come on guys we don't live in a perfect world. We are never going to see criminals w/ machineguns mounted on roofs of their cars because "the 2nd says we can do anything". Sorry it isn't going to happen.

Richmond (and VA because VA preemption prevents local gunlaws) had a choice:
a) RESTRICT GUNS
or
b) PUNISH CRIMINALS.

Chicago, CA, DC, New York, Detroit all chose A and it didn't work. Then they kept trying harder and stronger versions of A. VA instead chose B and it did work.
 
They are about giving more tools to government to combat guns, and anything labeled an offense that involves firearms in aboslutely any way
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WRONG. The scope is very limited. It is not a NEW LAW. It enforces an existing law that has been on the books for 40+ years. The programs has been around 10+ years. The scope hasn't changed in the slightest since day one.

They may use thier discretion to target certain things predominantly, but that is what it is, thier discretion.
Do you really believe giving discretion to government to deliver harsh penalties for anything deemed an offense involving a firearm is a good idea?
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WRONG AGAIN. There is no discretion involved. The statutes are EXISTING FEDERAL statutes. All VA does is hand you off to the feds.

The statutes are very clear. Very simple.
FELON + GUN = ILLEGAL (everywhere in US)
SCHOOL + ILLEGAL GUN USE = ILLEGAL (everywhere in US)
DISTRIBUTE DRUGS + GUN = ILLEGAL (everywhere in US) - use of firearm in commission of a felony.

Despite all your doomsday scenarios it hasn't affected anyone outside the scope:
It doesn't affect home owners in SD situation (unless they are already violent felons).
It doesn't effect someone leaving CHP at home.
It doesn't affect someone who accidentally conceals a firearm (and doesn't have a CHP).
It doesn't affect even brandishing (unless in a school).
It doesn't affect someone failing to license or register (there is no such thing in VA).
It doesn't affect ANYONE unless they are a felon

Like they say "by severely punishing all gun crimes, including those as minor as illegal possession."
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It should correctly read "by severely punishing all gun crimes, including those as minor as illegal possession by a VIOLENT FELON".

What new types of firearm offenses do you think will exist in the future, perhaps even simple possession of some increasing types of firearms? Well guess under what statutes enhancements can be added? The very type naive gun owners support now to be 'tough on crime' involving firearms.
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The federal statutes have been around (but rarely enforced) for 40+ years.
Project exile has been around for 10 years.
Neither have changed. They have a very simple purpose:
VIOLENT FELON + GUN = DANGER TO SOCIETY.
VIOLENT FELON + GUN = State Jail time + Fed Jail Time.

Hypothetical all you want.
However VA was able to cut crime so much, so fast that the program is being started up in 5-6 other high crime cities. They did it without one single restriction on law abiding citizens.

LESS CRIME + LESS RESTRICTIONS ON GUNS = WINNER TO ME.
 
Well, actually - it sort of is, at least relatively.

Before 1968, released felons could own/possess guns. I can't see that the last 40 years has been all that safer for the average person than all those years before.
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Agreed. I personally do think that felons should be able to get their weapon rights back along with voting rights.

However right NOW everywhere in the US it is illegal for a felon to posses a firearm. It has been for 40 years.

The point I was trying to make is VA didn't make a new law. They just enforced an existing law one that has been on the books for 40 years. I consider 40 year "not new".

Shouldn't laws be enforced?
If we believe the law is wrong shouldn't it be taken off the books?

Even if you believe all felons should the second they are out of jail get a firearm there are only 3 options:
a) enforce the law
b) repeal the law
c) pretend the law doesn't existing and get mad that VA is enforcing a law that has existed for 40 years and act like this is a new law. laws are meant for ignoring not enforcing or repealing.

Of course option C is in jest but until federal statute is changed VA is not making a new law they are simply enforcing it.
 
Of course option C is in jest but until federal statute is changed VA is not making a new law they are simply enforcing it.
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Is it Virginia's responsibility to enforce federal law ????

(by calling their "Big Brother" to beat you up)

This could sort of be likened to some states that have voted to allow "medical marijuana" but the feds still prosecute for possession. Would you expect that state to turn its citizens over to the feds for somthing that is legal under state law? Virginia has made its choice and can't claim innocence in the matter.
 
This could sort of be likened to some states that have voted to allow "medical marijuana" but the feds still prosecute for possession. Would you expect that state to turn its citizens over to the feds for somthing that is legal under state law? Virginia has made its choice and can't claim innocence in the matter.
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Except Virginia DIDN'T make felons carrying a firearm legal. It is illegal under VA code also.
 
"I am sorry, I just cannot champion severe punishment of anyone that violates any law if a firearm is in any way involved."

Well good for you, but you are in the wrong thread with that lengthy post. This thread is about specific laws, specific violations and a specific program that targets felons using guns.

John in Richmond
 
Sometimes I think I'm the only one who has read the site. So, once more...

www.dcjs.virginia.gov/exile/

"Virginia Exile is the Commonwealth's tough program which carries bail restrictions and imposes a mandatory minimum sentence of five years in a Virginia prison for those who:

- have a prior conviction for a violent felony and are convicted of possessing a firearm;

- are convicted of possessing a firearm on school property with the intent to use it, or displaying it in a threatening manner;

- are convicted of possessing a firearm and Schedule I or II drugs such as cocaine or heroin, or convicted of possessing more than a pound of marijuana with the intent to sell."


John

P.S. - Notice that there is no mention of possessing a gun while jaywalking, possessing a gun while doing 5 mph over the limit or, well, you get the point I hope. Geez, the 3rd one even requires more than a POUND OF POT.
 
I've read this entire thread and considered both sides. I have to say I agree 100% with this law. It punishes criminals, that's a good thing. It doesn't affect law abiding citizens, that's a good thing. I see it as win-win.
 
"Virginia Exile is the Commonwealth's tough program which carries bail restrictions and imposes a mandatory minimum sentence of five years in a Virginia prison for those who:

- have a prior conviction for a violent felony and are convicted of possessing a firearm;

- are convicted of possessing a firearm on school property with the intent to use it, or displaying it in a threatening manner;

- are convicted of possessing a firearm and Schedule I or II drugs such as cocaine or heroin, or convicted of possessing more than a pound of marijuana with the intent to sell."
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Does anybody else see a problem with the bold part besides me?

If so, please explain so that I don't have to preach.

=====

This program is a compromise with the Brady Campaign. It's not necessary. What's worse is that people here are trying to argue that it's better than a mere compromise. It's not.
 
I've never been on school property with the intent to use my firearm. I've never displayed my firearm in a threatening manner. And before you say that this would turn "printing" into a federal felony or something to that extent, consider that OPEN carry is perfectly legal in VA, therefore there is no printing. All it's saying is that going to a school with the intent to shoot someone is illegal. I'm cool with that. Brandishing, which involves actually drawing the weapon and displaying it in a threatening manner in other than a legitimate self defense situation, is illegal. I'm cool with that as well. Both of those are already illegal. Now, if I have this wrong or you see it differently, I'm always open to having my mind changed. One of the hallmarks of someone who is pro-gun is our ability to respond well to logic and reason.
 
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