A question on training courses

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Johannes_Paulsen

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I am planning on attending some additional handgun courses this summer. Right now, I'm just trying to decide the best approach. There will be several good instructors who will be giving three day/weekend courses either around my home town or within reasonable driving distance, and on a mix of subjects (basic handgun, close quarters tactics, and the like.) If I wanted to, I could probably take one a month between May and September.

I started looking at the numbers and doing the math on what this would cost (between round counts, etc.), however, and realized that instead of doing this, I could just save my money and just go to Gunsite for a week instead. (It would be more expensive after lodging, transportation was factored in, but not decisively so.)

So...all else being equal, what would be better from a training perspective? One week at Gunsite, or a few courses over a few months with different instructors? Thoughts?
 
Mutliple classes from multiple instructors, you will be exposed to a wider range of philosophies and styles and will be better able to pick what works best for you. I have trained with several different people and have blended points from all of them into what I am currently using.
 
That is a darn good question, IMHO.

My own take on it is the multiple classes over time plan. Granted, Gunsite is Gunsite and all (and I'd love to go sometime) but I personally look at classes not just as learning, but also as part of a regular practice. I try to retake a class no less than every other month, just to practice all the stuff that the class affords in my very good local facility.

FWIW. I'm no expert, but I do believe that regular small amounts of training beats a binge crash course once in a while.

But if you do go to Gunsite, be sure to give us a review (with pics, of course).

:)
 
@sidheshooter: I confess the more hard-nosed part of my brain agrees with you (and bratch). And given my responsibilities at work, taking several 3-day weekends over a few months is much easier to arrange than taking an entire week off.

Still...Gunsite 250 has a cachet about it. Everyone always talks about it being a 'life-changing' experience.
 
I'll give you a point of view as an instructor attending Gunsite.

I'd attended a number of 2 and 3 day courses prior to going to the 250 course and I don't think it was a life changing experience...but then I knew how to fight with a gun before. What it was, was very well planned out.

It isn't a binge or crash course where they just keep stuffing you. Most short classes shoot about 1k rounds, Gunsite attendees shoot about 1200 in 5 days...so it's actually fewer rounds per day.

The 250 course material builds like a well written story. It is like taking small amounts of training at a time...you're just doing it for 5 days in a row. What is nice is that it will give you a known/recognized basis to judge future training against.

I really liked that even though they teach shooting from the Weaver (and it isn't like a lot of other places I've seen teach it), they don't insist that you shoot from it...they do ask you to give it a chance. I went there to see how they taught it and to give it an honest try as a defensive technique...it took about 3 days to really get a feel for it.

I'd point out that you'd get the most out of the 250 class if you have the fundamentals of shooting down before attending. You can pay a lot more attention if you aren't trying to remember the fundamentals of grip and trigger press.

The big pluses for me was shooting in the Fun House (shooting inside on recognition targets ) and the Assault Course (running up a gully with steel targets hidden up draws)...how many folks have that at their home range.

The Big Three schools you should have on your shooting resume are Gunsite, Clint Smith's Thunder Ranch and Bill Roger's Shooting Academy
 
"given my responsibilities at work, taking several 3-day weekends over a few months is much easier to arrange than taking an entire week off."

I think you answered your own question, at least for this year . . .

Taking classes locally, provided that the instructors are good, will provide more "bang for the buck". And a Gunsite 250 can still be a goal for the future . . .

Ken Campbell in Indiana is an adjunct instructor with Gunsite and does the 123 carbine and 150 handgun class every year (and some years twice). That's about 6 hours away for me and a trip I'll make, hopefully next year
 
Ken Campbell
Ron Fielder
Jay Tuttle
Joe Knapp

I thought they were very good...not just in technique, but in real world fighting mindset
 
If your level of training as it currently stands is such that you will get full benefit out of a trip to Gunsite, it seems to me it would be worth doing if you can manage it. If your level of training needs to be built up some to establish a good basis of comparison for what you will be taught at Gunsite, do the shorter classes locally first.

And then plan a trip to Gunsite :D.

What a terrific dilemma to have... good luck working it out successfully.
 
That's a question only the individual involved can answer, pretty much. It depends on the training one has had already and how much the lessons of that training have been ingrained by subsequent practice and conscious analysis after the fact.

IMHO at minimum a person needs to have the basics down pat in order to get the most out of a training session with a top tier trainer or school. "The basics" IMHO are a reflexive level of safety, knowing how to run the gun, diagnose and reduce malfs on the fly, having equipment squared away so there are no avoidable equipment issues, making sure the available ammo runs reliably in the gun, that a sufficient number of reliable magazines are available so there are no delays in firing strings due to insufficient loaded magazines, and that sort of thing. Having an understanding of what you know that is sufficient to evaluate what's being taught helps get money's worth out of a top tier class, too, but 'the basics' are pretty much a minimum level of readiness as I see it.

fwiw...
 
It is always in interesting question of how good you need to be.

I'll say this. The better you are at the fundamental skills needed to run your chosen platform, the more you'll get out of a class at Gunsite. There is nothing more distracting than having to worry about aligning the sights correctly or not jerking the trigger when they are trying to teach a fighting skill.

They'll touch on how you should be doing some basic things, but they aren't going to slow down the class just for you to catch up...they have a Gunsite 150 class for that.

I think to get the most out of a 250 class, you should:
1. know how to align your sights and where to place them on a target to accurately place your shot
2. have good trigger finger discipline and muzzle awareness
3. be able to safety holster your pistol without looking at the holster
4. know how to correctly grip and change magazines
5. learn enough trigger control to keep your rounds on a 3"x 5" card at 7-10 yards when shooting at a pace of about 1 shot a sec
6. be willing to change everything you've learned about shooting to try what they are going to teach you
 
There are quite a few reputable trainers around. You do not need to go to Arizona, Oregon, or Texas for quality training. Those locations charge quite a bit for their classes. I generally attend quality courses that cost no more than $150-$225 per day.

Read AAR's (After Action Reports) on firearmstrainingandtactics.com and m4carbine.net.

Take a look at Tom Givens, F2S Consulting, de Bethencourt (for snub nosed revolvers), SouthNarc, Dave Harrington, Larry Vickers, Kyle Defoor, Bob Vogel and others. Many trainers travel.

I highly recommend SouthNarc's ECQC course. It covers the extreme close quarters criminal situations, which citizens are likely to encounter.

Tom Givens is really, really good. He travels around too. He has a course in West Elkton, Ohio. He has one in June in Culpeper, VA.

Jay Cunningham has run courses in Beaver Falls, Pennsylvania.
http://www.lowspeed-highdrag.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=51&Itemid=61

Paul Hotaling also goes to Pennsylvania.

Todd Green of pistol-training.com will be up at Beaver Falls, PA in September 2012.

You may consider taking a course with a local guy. Check out his reputation; he'll likely be just fine for a first defensive handgun course.
 
Last edited:
recommended reading

http://gunsite.com/store/page7.html

Buy the Gunsite TACTICAL PISTOL HANDBOOK and also THE MODERN TECHNIQUE OF THE PISTOL by Greg Morrison.

And search on Amazon.com or Alibris for a copy of COOPER ON HANDGUNS (the 1974 edition is longer and better, the 1979 edition is OK)

If you plan to go to Gunsite in the future, that will get you started. Practice the pistol drills in the Tactical Pistol Handbook in preparation.
 
9mmepiphany said:
...I'll say this. The better you are at the fundamental skills needed to run your chosen platform, the more you'll get out of a class at Gunsite...
Click to expand...
On the other hand, when I took 250, about 10 years ago, one of the students was a young college student. He had almost no shooting experience. IIRC he was also the only one from our class to qualify "Expert."

Of course, he was young, athletic and enthusiastic. Overall I do agree with Fred and 9mmepiphany, one will tend to get more out of a visit to Guniste if he is well grounded in the fundamental.

For those who might be interested, I wrote this article about my experience taking Intermediate Handgun (350) at Gunsite last year. Ron Fielder was also one of the instructors for that class.
 
fiddletown said:
On the other hand, when I took 250, about 10 years ago, one of the students was a young college student. He had almost no shooting experience. IIRC he was also the only one from our class to qualify "Expert."

Of course, he was young, athletic and enthusiastic. Overall I do agree with Fred and 9mmepiphany, one will tend to get more out of a visit to Guniste if he is well grounded in the fundamental.
Click to expand...
I always hate those people :p...it is like the classmate who throws off the grading curve ;)

I do agree that if you approach the class as a blank slate, no ego and good co-ordination, you will surely leave a much better shooter than you arrived as.

How do college students afford Gunsite?
 
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