Advice on anti-gun loved ones

[vanbeast]

Bogie: Well, actually... I'm a raise-taxes, pro-choice, only-vote-for-Democrats-and-democratic-issues type liberal... so... yeah... I will say that I am NOT anti-religion or for cutting defense spending, but almost everyone else who holds my other views are. The only republican I would *ever* vote for is Colin Powell, etc etc etc.

Baba Louie: Gun control... well, I think there are certain firearms that maybe shouldn't be legal... but then again, it's a slippery slope and one I'd rather not tread. Plus, I'm not that familiar with the issue. I believe that existing gun control legislation more or less has its heart in the right place, but is implemented in a severely boneheaded fashion. 10-round magazine? Does that really make a difference?

I used to be opposed to guns. I used to feel like she did, but to a lesser extent. I was ignorant and had never been exposed to the proper, safe, responsible use of guns. I sing a different tune now

My emphasis is on competitive shooting. At this point in my life I am not interested in keeping a loaded, ready weapon in my home for self-defense, nor am I interested in concealed-carry. For reasons that I cannot explain, I gain significant satisfaction from poking little holes in pieces of paper from a distance.

None of this is important (to this discussion) though.

I appreciate all of your comments and am interested in hearing any more that might still be out there. Obviously, every situation is different. I don't think she is trying to coerce me or change me or anything like that. I think that she is terrified of guns because she believes that they are used primarily for evil. It will likely be a cold day in hell before I can get her to the range, but I think I'm going to try, slowly but surely, to show her how a responsible, non-violent gun user can be.

I know for sure I'm not going to tell her when I buy my first handgun this summer...

Again, thanks for your comments, suggestions, and support. I'm glad that being known as a liberal isn't going to get me shunned around here... It seems like the folks on gun forums are just plain nicer than most folks on other forums Especially ones with emphasis on such politically charged issues.

 

[megatronrules]

Vanbeast I don't know how serious you are with this girl none of us here do. However I can tell you from personal experiance that I woulden't waste my time with a girl who doesn't feel like I do on issues. Sometimes you can change a person but most times You can't the old saying "the leopord can't change it's spots" comes to mind.

That being said in a nutshell if you have to change someone to be with them chances are they're not worth being with. Lifes to short way to short to waste your time on any women theres simply to many to go around. I know these may seem like harsh words but take it from someone who knows. In short keep the guns,find another girl.

 

[vanbeast]

...I don't know how serious you are with this girl none of us here do. However I can tell you from personal experiance that I woulden't waste my time with a girl who doesn't feel like I do on issues. Sometimes you can change a person but most times You can't the old saying "the leopord can't change it's spots" comes to mind.

...In short keep the guns,find another girl.

You're right. I'm not even sure about that. I feel pretty strongly that in order to make a relationship work, sacrifices need to be made. I'm more in love with her than I am with guns, and I don't think that my involvement with guns has anything to do with who I am... that is, I don't feel it identifies me. I mountain bike, but I'm not a mountain biker. I shoot, but I'm not a gun nut. I cook, but I'm by no means a chef. It's just a hobby, and one I enjoy.

This is tough. Thanks again for your responses.

 

[megatronrules]

Vanbeast you need to do what makes you feel right and no one can do that but you. That being said I've sen male friends become whipped like a government mule and it started with guns,night out with the guys,the motorcycle, you name it. It almost never stops with one "sacrifice" most women want to see how far they can get with bossing us men around But OTOH there are men who do this to in all fairness.

Now I'am by no means a sexist male, I don't think men are superrior to women or any of that carp. But I do believe that women as a general rule tend to see how far they can bend a man to THAIR will. I can tell you stories that would make you cringe,they are down right frightening but true which makes them all the more scary. Best of luck whatever you decide vanbeast.

 

[Mastrogiacomo]

My sister is VERY anti ... "I don't approve of guns." Well sis, you don't live here anymore....of course her arguements are full of holes -- unlike my targets at the range. Wait until she finds out about the shotgun my father wants to buy...

The only thing you can do is show her how responsible you are with your guns. It may be a cold day in Hell before she joins you at the gun club but I suspect she'll live with it.

By the way Grenadier -- I loved the part about Sensei Phillips....
Unlike you though, my parents were very tolerant. I got nunchucks after watching "Enter the Dragon" as a girl -- the foam ones -- and knocked myself out cold. My parents never heard me fall in my room. Over ten years later I told them what happened. I can't believe they actually got mad about it....

 

[Baba Louie]

vanbeast,

I apologize for not saying welcome.

Thank you for being here sir. I hope you stay forever and will act (like others) as a good-natured (or not) and intelligent counterpoint to the choir's singing the same song to the same crowd. So again, we welcome you.

Also... about your comments re: gun control... certain... shouldn't be legal.

Hmmmm. Interesting concept. I'm afraid that I've been brainwashed since a very young burro to not be able to fully grasp what you mean by that comment.

Not be legal?

Do you mean the actual ownership by anyone of one of these... certain guns... should be regulated, or flat outlawed? And who would mfg such things and why? Should only a police/military force be able to "own" and use said nefarious objects? And if so, why them? Or should they cease to exist?

If you owned one of these... certain guns... would you do something evil just because you owned it? Would I? Do you not trust yourself? Should I not trust you? Do you know something about yourself that you fear in others? Would it (...said certain gun...) do something bad if you owned it? Could it?

vanbeast... there ARE monsters out there. I do say that evil walks the face of this earth. Some of this evil comes from individuals who only think and act with self-gratification as their goal.

Other, more political monsters, sometimes get together and actually force their opinions and socio-economic beliefs on those who have other ideas, thoughts and beliefs.

I'd like to be able to own any type of tool I can come up with to keep both of them away from me and mine.

But that should be nobodies business but mine.

I am not a criminal. I don't hurt others.

I will protect what is mine and those precious few things that are really worth protecting.

Please don't deny me any form of tool, or stand any roadblocks up in my path.

Promise me that and then we can (together) find jobs for the unemployed (if they're employable and will work) and we'll beg food from grocery stores and restaurant suppliers to help feed the poor, we'll read to kids whose parents won't... and the world will be a little better for our passing thru it.

But I don't understand the concept that my ownership of... certain guns... should not be legal.

Not that I know of any particular type of gun you're (not) describing... it doesn't really matter to me. They all do the same thing to some degree or another, don't they?

They throw rocks.

I learned my lesson about thrown rocks years ago. Sometimes you can and sometimes you can't. Some rocks are big and some rocks are small.

Adios

 

[vanbeast]

Baba Louie, you're absolutely right. I think I too have been brainwashed. I guess my attitude is that there are probably certain guns that have no legitimate application outside military and law enforcement... but then, why do I think that shooting for fun is illegitimate? I don't know. My views are evolving rapidly on this topic. It has only been recently that I've been exposed to the safe, respectful, responsible gun owner...

Thanks for the welcome.

 

[H Romberg]

Possibly unnecessary reminder: When approaching the issue with the GF, find some common ground first, eg the fact that you both deplore violence. Then illustrate how you can look at the same object and information, and come to different conclusions. Walk her through your reasoning process, and compare where you diverge. Normally it's a matter of some root assumptions that one person holds, and the other doesn't.

That's a good way to diffuse a problem I run into when I try to convert my Democrat family to the (IMHO) more enlightened Libertarian point of view. If I first state my conclusions, which are at times vastly different from theirs, they decide that I'm either stupid or mean for disagreeing with them, and shut off the rest of the explanation. By walking them through my reasoning process starting from commonly held assumptions, we at least have an unbroken (hopefully) logical chain to examine, rather than resorting to the simple "he's just a heartless capitalist" explanation.

You've got your work cut out if you plan to live with someone who's opinions differ as much as you describe from yours on an issue this significant. At the very least, examining both of your convictions gives you a good chance to be able to "agree to disagree". At best, you may help her identify some invalid assumptions she may be making. Here are a Couple of the most common ones:

1 Guns are something more than a tool for precisely accelerating small objects. In fact, that is ALL they are capable of doing. This effect can be used (like anything else) for a variety of purposes both good and bad.

2 Guns are dangerous. In fact, guns are completely inanimate. It is BEHAVIOR that is dangerous, since guns can not fire without external input. Violent BEHAVIOR is what has no place in society.

3 All guns are a threat to public safety. This is simply incorrect. Guns in the hands of people who harm others are indeed a threat to public safety (behavior again), but those are a very small portion of the total. The vast mahority of guns are never, and will never be used to harm anyone.

4 Guns can not be trusted to anyone but the police and military. In fact, the police and military are historically the least trustworthy and the most violent sectors of most societies. This is because the power to coerce others without sanction has a highly corruptive influence on those to whom it is given. It may be wise to maintain a physical check on that power should its corruptive influence ever prove to great to control through normal channels.

5 Fewer guns = less gun crime. While this is true in an absolute sense, (0 guns = 0 gun crime), it falls down once we factor in the impossibility of removing all guns from society. There are those who will harm others regardless of weaponry. What guns do is allow any person the option of defending him or herself against attack should it occur. This has an immediate effect of stopping the criminal act in question, and a greater effect of adding to the risks a criminal must live with. In turn, this reduces crime. You have only to look at the crime rates for proof. It becomes painfully clear that places declared "Gun Free" are the most dangerous places in our nation. Why is it that people go on shooting sprees at schools, churches and offices, and no one mugs police officers? Austrailia is learning this lesson as we speak, with violent crime skyrocketing now that the populace has been rendered defenseless. What's more, when gun laws are relaxed to allow peacable people to go armed, crime rates drop.

 

[Sisco]

My Daughter is 19 and opposed to guns. I won't go as far to call her 'anti' though. I've had guns in the house since the day she was born but she still sees them only as tools for killing.
I think I finally ended the discussion the other day, and this may not apply in your case but it worked for me.

She was on a rant about my handguns when I proposed this scenario:
I'm 50 years old, not in what you'd call the best physical shape but healthy. Only been in a fistfight twice in my life, went 0-1-1. Now imagine some 6'3" 230lb 20-year-old meth head breaks into our home with the intention of doing some robbing & raping. As the man of the house it's my duty to protect my family and just how am I going to do that? One-on-one wrestling match in the living room or a healthy dose of 45acp or 00 buck? Or we could dial 911. IF we could get to the telephone but even then the intruder could do a lot of damage and be gone before the cops got here.
Fist time she's never had a comeback.

 

[keithernTN]

vanbeast

One of the problems with your GF is her exposure and education on guns especially from living in a ghetto in LA. If she is the closed minded type you can throw all the facts and scenarios at her you want and it will have no effect, I've tried to talk reasonably with these types of people to no avail, they are a waste of time. If she is reasonable there is no reason she could not be educated in the not only practical use of firearms (self defense) but in the fun and enjoyable hobby that they provide in target shooting and competition.

Ask her what she would rather have if faced with an intruder in her home intent on rape and murder, a cellphone or a gun.

 

[Glamdring]

Well my state became Shall issue last month. Was talking to one of my roommates (also landlord) late last night (lots of severe weather around here, tornadoes, thunder, etc was hard to sleep).

She is elderly and was in the hospital yesterday. Mentioned the "No guns allowed" signs the hospital has put up. Now I'm not sure if you would call her an anti. But she doesn't like guns at all.

She thought the signs were stupid. Since anyone planing to cause problems would ignore the sign.


I couldn't help smiling. I agreed with her. She still doesn't see the point of carrying a gun for self defense though. She made noise about "they would just take it away from you."

I tried to point out that if someone like me (young male, lift wts regular, etc) attacked her with no weapons at all the only thing that might save her would be a gun.

And sort of like that sign, the only people that would be trying to take the gun away from her would be the ones that would be trying to hurt her in the first place. So how would it make her worse off???

She did realize that "oh they wouldn't see the gun unless I tried to use it". I said yep, and if you go thru the class that is required to get the permit. You will realize that you wouldn't draw the gun unless in fear for your life or grave bodily harm.

She did say "But I saw it on TV [video/DVD]".

My comeback, she is a real wiseacre just like myself , was "Did you know rabbits and deer can talk!?" "I saw it in a movie"

The point was made, but if I hadn't pointed it out???

Most people have never been exposed to critical thinking.

I don't know if I changed her mind at all. But I think she started thinking about some of the points I made. I figure when I can get someone the age of my grandparents to even think about their position on a topic, a position they have probably held at least as long as I have been around, that I have accomplished something.

 

[bogie]

I'm a raise-taxes, pro-choice, only-vote-for-Democrats-and-democratic-issues type liberal... so... yeah... I will say that I am NOT anti-religion or for cutting defense spending, but almost everyone else who holds my other views are. The only republican I would *ever* vote for is Colin Powell, etc etc etc.

Congratulations...

I think that we're paying enough taxes anyway - why do we need to raise 'em? If someone is out of a job, and wants welfare, let 'em dig a hole, then fill it up, or if they are unable to do that, find 'em something they CAN do. But make it such that actually getting a job is preferred.

I vote for who I feel is the best person for the job, and in the event I get to wondering, I basically knee-jerk toward the 2nd amendment side. The current "democratic" policy stance seems to lean too far toward social engineering, a sort of "we know what is good for you" kind of thing... That worries me, especially when the folks who "know" haven't even been out of their major urban area since they were born, except to do an occasional vacation, where they tell the "hicks" how dumb they are...

Pro-choice? As long as tax money isn't funding it, it doesn't matter to me.

I'm not a fan of organized religion - seen too many abuses. The worst thing that ever happened to the republican party was the attempted takeover by the rollers.

We need more defense spending, mostly in terms of decent pay for soldiers. We have guys working/working on million dollar equipment who are basically making minimum wage.

We need to end the "war on drugs," since it has basically become a cash cow for the law enforcement/corrections industry. Legalize it all, tax it moderately.

I don't know if Powell can run - I thought he was born in Jamaica? I'd vote for him, if we could combine him with Norman and Franks...

There are ALL SORTS of people in the gun culture.

 

[Sam Adams]

Vanbeast

You said

I guess my attitude is that there are probably certain guns that have no legitimate application outside military and law enforcement... but then, why do I think that shooting for fun is illegitimate?

As I said earlier, I respect your guts for coming to THR. However, with all due respect - you need to become better informed about this issue. At least you are open-minded, so here are a few things to consider:

It ain't about sport! I think that you need to read that short article that Roscoe posted a link to at the bottom of page 1. This is written by a self-professed liberal and makes the point (among others) that a situation in which the state has a monopoly on force has, historically, been a recipe for disaster. How bad is it? 170 million people were murdered by governments in the 20th century. That is:

1,700,000 people per year;
4657 people per day;
194 people per hour; and
3 people per minute.

I would daresay that the number of deaths caused by the illegal use of guns by ordinary (i.e. non-uniformed) criminals, combined with accidental gun-related deaths of all kinds, resulted in far fewer deaths than this in the 20th century - and the 1st 4 years of the 21st haven't changed my mind about this.

What am I saying? In short, the 2nd Amendment was proposed and ratified in order to assure that the American People would have the MEANS with which to revolt against a domestic tyranny, should the restrictions placed on government power in the Constitution fail at some point in the future. You would learn a lot by reading The Federalist Papers #46 written by James Madison (its undoubtedly on the WWW somewhere). Read also the case of U.S. v. Miller (1939), in which the US Supreme Court found not only an individual right to keep and bear arms, but a right specifically attached to weapons "suitable for militia use." This means, IOW, suitable for putting down a rebellion (e.g. the Civil War), repelling a foreign invasion (e.g. the War of 1812) or fighting a 2nd American Revolution. By necessity, full-auto weapons exactly like those carried by the ordinary soldier are explicitly protected by this ruling and the 2nd Amendment (not that the government pays much attention to that, but it is still the law). I would argue that semi-auto versions of the same, as well as bolt-action "sniper" (i.e. deer hunting) rifles would also be so protected; so would shotguns (the "trenchbrooms" of WW1, still used to this very day by the armed forces) and handguns. In short, everything that shoots - or, at a minimum, everything that shoots a round of any caliber ever fired by any military outfit in the world.

Why do you think that the US has never had to contend with a Hitler-like dictator or a genocide like the Nazis perpetrated? Perhaps the existence of large numbers of firearms in the hands of +/-50% of the adult population has something to do with it. How far do you think a dictator or an invader would get while facing 80 million gun owners armed with 1/4 of a billion firearms? But make no mistake - those weapons must be comparable to those used by the military - we couldn't hope to fight a foreign invader or revolt against a tyrannical government if we were armed with single-shot rifles.

Please read my taglines - they are also informative.

 

[Sam Adams]

Glamdring

"Did you know
rabbits and deer can talk!?" "I saw it in a movie"

This shall serve as official notice that I am stealing that line for use against any and all idiots who tell me that they are relying on what they saw in the movies or on TV for their point of view.

 

[geekWithA.45]

Welcome!

My wife (now known as geeketteWithA9mm) grew up in a crime infested region of Philadelphia, and escaped with her family as a teenager. With her heck raising brother in the house, she learned the equation that

guns = trouble

and more or less uncritically accepted all the anti propaganda.

That is, till she met me

I, and my consistent, responsible example of safe handling and storage wasn't enough. It softened her stance a bit.

Revisiting the history she slept through in college wasn't enough either, but it gave her a framework. (History is a gas if you bring it to animated life!)

What really put her over the top, and the book I recommend for anyone, including yourself is

Armed and Female by Paxton Quigley

Loooong story short, Paxton worked for the GC acts of 1968, and had the courage to admit she was dead wrong when it didn't work as expected. The last straw for her was visiting her friend in the hospital after surviving a rape. The tech in the book is pretty dated, but the core principles she addresses regarding self defense and women are as fresh today as when it first came out.


Order it now.

 

[CTgunteacher]

Vanbeast,

I can't elaborate much on what the others have posted, but I can tell you that success is possible. My own girlfriend came from Manhattan by way of Illinois, and carried a very deep liberal streak. She was absolutely mortified when she learned I was a gun owner, after we had been dating for three or four weeks.

Many, many hard-fought philosophical battles later (along with many pints of beer at our favorite "date bar"), I finally convinced her that guns were at least acceptable. Fast forward two years, and we're attending the NRA show together, where she proudly displays her membership card to get in the door. We shoot the Springfield Armory Action Pistol Challenge together. She bugs me to take her trap shooting every week. She recently got a carry permit (though she's not quite ready to carry), and bought herself a 9mm pistol. And she convinced the owner of her bookstore to have Wayne LaPierre for a signing -- I've got a great picture of them together.

I'm asking her to marry me this weekend. It can happen. Good luck.

Mike

 

[Intune]

Welcome to THR Vanbeast! I'm a flat-tax, decriminalize drugs, pro choice, close borders, deport illegals kinda voter.

You said-
"I know for sure I'm not going to tell her when I buy my first handgun this summer..."


Stop & think about this statement in a long-term relationship.


Think again.

 

[RAY WOODROW 3RD]

Quote:
"I'm asking her to marry me this weekend. It can happen. Good luck."

Good luck to you CTgunteacher! Sounds like you have a winner there.


vanbeast,
My wife was an anti when I met her. She wanted to learn about guns due to the fact that they were in the house. After many discussions she was brought over to the "Dark Side". Now she is an NRA Instructor and helps me train others. Transformation from anti to pro can be done!

(I'm a Republican that leans hard to the libertarian side of things)

 

[vanbeast]

I'm asking her to marry me this weekend. It can happen. Good luck.

!!!!!!! Wonderful! That made my day. Best of luck

 

[Sisco]

After many discussions she was brought over to the "Dark Side".

I'd rather think she saw the light and was pulled away from the "Dark Side".

 

[Sgt]

Vanbeast,

IMHO, if she doesn't come around quick....cut her loose.

These "power" issues will only grow down the road into something you may not be able to live with. There are plenty of women out there, trust me. I'm speaking from way too many years of experience and if she doesn't like your hobbies, or habits now...just wait a few years and you'll have to sell your guns, to finance the divorce. My suggestion is to find a nice Right Wing, gun owning Republican girl and let her work her mojo on you.

Good Luck, Sgt

 

[S_O_Laban]

Welcome to THR, Vanbeast, look forward to hearing your thoughts and logic on different topics in the future. FYI I'm more a Lib/Repub type of guy myself.

Girl friend; be carefull about following your heart, it may not be in the right place. If she can not trust you with guns then she can not trust you. Someone not open to education on important issues is both dangerous to herself and all thoses around her (you). Ignorance can and does kill. There are always, always lots more fish in the sea.

Vanbeast, good luck and keep us posted, there is alot to be learned here.

 

[Dave Markowitz]

Welcome

Vanbeast,

Welcome to THR.

I've been shooting as long as I remember. About six and a half years ago I met the woman who I eventually married. She was very anti-gun, having been brought up with all the stereotypical liberal northeastern attitudes most Jewish people are.

I never hid the fact that I was a shooter from her. AAMOF, the first time I picked her up for a date she saw the NRA Life Member sticker on my car.

For the first few years we dated she adamantly maintained that she would never allow guns in her house. Nor would she ever allow her children to be exposed to firearms. One night we were out to dinner and talking about the future and I finally got through to her.

I put it this way: Supposed you keep guns out of your house. Fine. But can you guarantee to me that your kids will never be exposed to a gun, e.g., at a friend's house? And since the answer to that is no, wouldn't you feel better knowing that your kid has been trained in how to be safe around guns? She admitted that she'd never considered this possibility. This broke the ice and got her thinking more logically about the issue.

We've been married now for two years and this ain't no gun-free household. I still haven't gotten her to the range yet but she's no longer an anti.

 

[wendy]

If she is open minded, keep the lines of communication open
My best friend isn't an anti, but more of an agnostic
she doesn't want a gun of her own, but understands it's my thing
she did however get her IL required FOID card

when we were driving back from the gun shop after
getting photos taken, she started talking about what
she would like to try

if she is interested in shooting, anything can happen

and another thought:
isn't it funny how supposed "children movies" affect
the views of folks? had that brought to my attention
a few years back and never thanked him for it.

 

[bogie]

In a few weeks, I've got some co-workers who want me to do a gun safety class with 'em - good excuse for a day a the range.

This started when one of 'em was staying in a bed & breakfast, and opened a closet to pull out a towel or something, and a gun fell out. And she had no idea what to do with it.