MTMilitiaman
Member
That seems like an awful lot of "ifs" for a rifle you are trusting your life to.
AK-47 or AR-15 merits of each for HD etc.
- Thread starter HerrWolfe
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That seems like an awful lot of "ifs" for a rifle you are trusting your life to.
Crosshair
Member
Ran over one of my $6 East German mags with my car on a bet and it still works.
C-grunt
Member
A wise man once told me that the M-16 is a profesionals gun and the AK-47 is a peasant guns. The AR might need a bit more TLC than the AK, but it will do things the AK cant. But, if you want to bury your rifle in a rice paddy until the Hueys come, go with the AK.
Foxtrot427
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The AR just about has it all over the AK besides in reliability. You can pour w/e over an AK, dunk it in anything and it will continue to go bang bang. Not the AR however. If it were up to me, Id go with an AR-180B, Daewoo DR-200, or Kel-Tec SU-16. I KNOW the DR-200 is more reliable than most ARs and Im sure the 180B is. Im not sure if the SU is but Ive heard good things. If you wouldnt mind a .308 a FAL or Cetme would also be good.
I think I want a 180B more than anythng else out there right now. AR mags, ar accuracy, AK reliability, and pretty cool looks.
I think I want a 180B more than anythng else out there right now. AR mags, ar accuracy, AK reliability, and pretty cool looks.
MTMilitiaman
Member
Which is bullpucky. Some people seem to forget that Russia has a professional army, with elements in it that are feared and respected worldwide, OMON and Spetsnaz aren't exactly boyscouts. They use or have used the Kalashnikov for decades to good effect. In fact, the effective range of the current crop of AK-74s when equipped with a popular Russian PK-AS red dot sight is said to be 450 meters--not too far from the stated effective range of the M16A4--and probably equally optimistic given their cartridges. Likewise, China did really good at creating a respectible fighting force with the Kalashnikov for a lot of years, and lest we forget, the Valmet is still at its heart a Kalashnikov, and you don't exactly see people lining up to invade Finland.
Lastly, I've seen pics of Hamas with M16s as well. The AK is simpler in design and as such easier for conscripts and peasants with little or no formal education or mechanical knowledge to employ, but that doesn't mean the AK is by definition a peasant's gun.
kbarrett
Member
I think this debate was best handled by the now defunct blog, Headsbunker:
http://tinyurl.com/gzddh
In the AR vs. AK debate, the winner is obviously the Mosin-Nagant.
http://tinyurl.com/gzddh
In the AR vs. AK debate, the winner is obviously the Mosin-Nagant.
RNB65
Member
I love all these folks who say AR's have reliability problems. I've got one, I've fired it thousands of times when it was plenty clean and plenty dirty, never had a jam, never had an FTF, never had an FTE, it's by far the most reliable autoloading gun I'ver ever owned.
That being said, I'd take an 870 pump with 00buck over either of them.
That being said, I'd take an 870 pump with 00buck over either of them.
MudPuppy
Member
1) An AK and an AR can be had in either 5.56 or 7.62. The platform and the cartridge have not be married for years.
2) Someone DOES make a convertor that snaps into an AK mag well that will accept AR mags (a 5.56 AK variant, obviously).
If you can only have one, I'd suggest an AK in 7.62x39. It is more reliable (imo) and I think that round is more capable than the average shooter. However, my AR is stupid accurate with an easily and expensive mount and scope and ergonomics on it are great. See? I can't even agree with myself--try 'em both if you can, they are both viable choices.
2) Someone DOES make a convertor that snaps into an AK mag well that will accept AR mags (a 5.56 AK variant, obviously).
If you can only have one, I'd suggest an AK in 7.62x39. It is more reliable (imo) and I think that round is more capable than the average shooter. However, my AR is stupid accurate with an easily and expensive mount and scope and ergonomics on it are great. See? I can't even agree with myself--try 'em both if you can, they are both viable choices.
I just put a little over 100 rounds through my AR tonight. It was pretty clean but entirely dry and it ran without a hitch with Federal AE .223, XM193, and Winchester 55 grain FMJ and a couple strippers of Radway Green SS109 I had taking up space.
Before that I put over 1K of assorted 5.56 ammo through it without a single failure to feed, fire, or extract. I even tried Wolf and Olympic ammo in it just to see what would happen. No problems. All I did was pull a boresnake through the bore to get any excess oil or crap out of the bore. No scrubbing and no lube and the bloody thing runs perfect.
That is more than can be said for my first FAL, my first SKS, and a couple of AK's I have seen.
I would rate the AK and FAL above the AR in terms of durability but people badmouth the AR for no real reason. When I was in the Army I saw M-16's take some pretty hard raps and falls with no apparent ill effects. They are tough enough.
Any of them in good working order will do fine. None will need to be slathered in oil and grease to work (although I have found that if I don't keep the gas tubes of my FALs spotless and well oiled they rust like hell).
I am leaning hard to an AR for my own personal favorite.
I have an M4 on layaway that may well wind up being the perfect defensive rifle to me.
Common ammo.
Common parts.
Lots of knowledge around about them.
Accessories everywhere that allow you to modify it to fit exactly what you need it to do.
Brand new, prefectly reliable mags for about $10 each.
Low recoil.
Ammo choices to have the least chance of penetration (something to consider for HD).
And in my experience, assuming that it is in good working order, just as reliable as any other gun.
Before that I put over 1K of assorted 5.56 ammo through it without a single failure to feed, fire, or extract. I even tried Wolf and Olympic ammo in it just to see what would happen. No problems. All I did was pull a boresnake through the bore to get any excess oil or crap out of the bore. No scrubbing and no lube and the bloody thing runs perfect.
That is more than can be said for my first FAL, my first SKS, and a couple of AK's I have seen.
I would rate the AK and FAL above the AR in terms of durability but people badmouth the AR for no real reason. When I was in the Army I saw M-16's take some pretty hard raps and falls with no apparent ill effects. They are tough enough.
Any of them in good working order will do fine. None will need to be slathered in oil and grease to work (although I have found that if I don't keep the gas tubes of my FALs spotless and well oiled they rust like hell).
I am leaning hard to an AR for my own personal favorite.
I have an M4 on layaway that may well wind up being the perfect defensive rifle to me.
Common ammo.
Common parts.
Lots of knowledge around about them.
Accessories everywhere that allow you to modify it to fit exactly what you need it to do.
Brand new, prefectly reliable mags for about $10 each.
Low recoil.
Ammo choices to have the least chance of penetration (something to consider for HD).
And in my experience, assuming that it is in good working order, just as reliable as any other gun.
Cosmoline
Member
The AK suffers from a much poorer ammo selection for HD. I would not trust any military ball or the low-tech SP/HP ammo sold by the Russian outfits.
_N4Z_
Member
My 2 cents ..
Was US Army, lived and learned with an M16A1 for many a year. Very accurate weapon. Did experience jamming. Clear and continue on.
Now own and use a semi AK clone. Accuracy is real world deadly @ 100 or less. Still gonna make a baddie bleed real good within 200. 1000+ rounds and going, not even a hiccup.
Any HD range = less than 100 yards.
Both excellent rifles. Both are effective as butt stroking clubs. 7.62 makes a bigger, nastier hole.
I own and use a semi AK clone.
Was US Army, lived and learned with an M16A1 for many a year. Very accurate weapon. Did experience jamming. Clear and continue on.
Now own and use a semi AK clone. Accuracy is real world deadly @ 100 or less. Still gonna make a baddie bleed real good within 200. 1000+ rounds and going, not even a hiccup.
Any HD range = less than 100 yards.
Both excellent rifles. Both are effective as butt stroking clubs. 7.62 makes a bigger, nastier hole.
I own and use a semi AK clone.
Don't forget that if you DO shoot someone with an AK they're more likely to present it before a jury and pull the old " Look at this gun he has! It is t3h evil terrorist gun!"
If that's a concern then you're just plain screwed with either of the (gasp) "automatic military assault machine guns".
MrAcheson
Member
But OMON and Spetsnaz are special forces units. They better be good because they're special forces units.
I've met several former grunts in the then Soviet army. The only training they remembered was training to consume massive quantities of liquor. One of them also emigrated to Israel and subsequently served in their military. He said the Israeli military was hard because they expected him to actually get up in the morning and march places.
When Kalashnikov designed the AK, he very much had a peasant army in mind. Not because the Soviets didn't have a professional army, but because he had just gone through WWII where millions of peasants were conscripted. Kalashnikov was one of those conscripted peasants. He wanted his fellow peasants to be armed as well as possible when the next war came. He also thought that making the rifle simple would both make it easy to use and keep it reliable.
I suspect that there are more of us here who are "peasants" as opposed to "professionals" than are willing to admit it. How many of us are actually using our AK/AR's "professionally?" I know, I know...some are going to say you don't have to be doing something "for a living" to be "professional" at it. But even so, I will be the first to admit that my need/use of an AK/AR platform is occasional, recreational, and prophylactic. A peasant gun suits me just fine.
chrisslamar
Member
Just to add to the HD discussion. What would be a good HD round, for both rifles, that would work well so that you dont have to worry about excessive penitration if you were to miss. So you don't have to worry about the round going through the wall and hitting anyone else.
Zundfolge
Member
KINGMAX
Member
AK - 47
Get an AK-47 and abuse the out of it. Get the AK, find you a supply of 7.62 X 39 ammo. Everyone loves to shoot an AK. I have two of them, (1 Laminated stock that uses HI-Cap mags, and 1 single stack 10 shot paid $102.00 for it, I let my freinds shoot this one), and a YUGO SKS.
Get an AK-47 and abuse the
out of it. Get the AK, find you a supply of 7.62 X 39 ammo. Everyone loves to shoot an AK. I have two of them, (1 Laminated stock that uses HI-Cap mags, and 1 single stack 10 shot paid $102.00 for it, I let my freinds shoot this one), and a YUGO SKS.Bartholomew Roberts
Member
Both will serve the purpose well if you will, get whichever rifle you prefer and if you can't decide, then get the one that allows you to spend more money on formal training. Ultimately, I think the AR15 offers more options than the AK; but neither one is capable of transforming a novice into something else.
A new shooter with either rifle, formal training, and regular practice will outshoot a new shooter with the opposite rifle and all the gadgetry in the world. Pat Rogers has a good article in the September 2006 SWAT evaluating the merits of the AK in broader terms but there are a lot of good points made relevant to this debate as well.
A new shooter with either rifle, formal training, and regular practice will outshoot a new shooter with the opposite rifle and all the gadgetry in the world. Pat Rogers has a good article in the September 2006 SWAT evaluating the merits of the AK in broader terms but there are a lot of good points made relevant to this debate as well.
longeyes
member
I don't have either one and I can't get either one (Los Angeles; yeah, I know; for now).
Why is it I don't see myself taking a lot of 250m shots in a SHTF situation? Reliability would be EVERYTHING if I had to use a longarm in Big Trouble. And I don't see how packing a sidearm, or two, or three makes up for the fact that...@#$% this sucker just jammed on me!!!
I'll buy an AK. When I can.
Maybe Kel-Tec could build an American Home Defense rifle on that pattern? (I know about the SU-16, but I mean something a bit, well, beefier.)
Why is it I don't see myself taking a lot of 250m shots in a SHTF situation? Reliability would be EVERYTHING if I had to use a longarm in Big Trouble. And I don't see how packing a sidearm, or two, or three makes up for the fact that...@#$% this sucker just jammed on me!!!
I'll buy an AK. When I can.
Maybe Kel-Tec could build an American Home Defense rifle on that pattern? (I know about the SU-16, but I mean something a bit, well, beefier.)
rangerruck
Member
this is a rifle, which it's primary function will be home defense? then the Ak is the way to go. Period, end of story. If you wanna target shoot, varmint shoot, bench shoot also , for very good accuracy, then ar. if you wanna hunt for larger stuff or pig hunt, then ak. If your priorities will allways be home defense first, everything else second, then ak.
rra_casper
Member
Adding fuel to the fire
I'm new here, but I'm no stranger to this debate.
Like RNB65, I'm unimpressed by this "ARs are unreliable" jazz. I've put close to 1,000 rounds through my mid-length RRA LAR-15, most of it Wolf (because I'm a poor college student), and I've had ONE feed problem. This came after firing nearly 400 rounds of Wolf 62gr JHP over the course of three extremely dusty and abusive days, and not having a chance to clean it. The chamber got kind of gunky, and the round had to be forward-assisted in. I did a quick-clean and fired another 100 rounds with nary a problem.
On the flip side, I have been unimpressed with the AK-47 (although admittedly I have only shot cheap Romanian semis). Call me crazy, but I like my bullets to go where I tell them to... Basically, the whole thing felt cheap (because it was) and its ergonomics weren't natural for a big American man like myself.
Neither gun is a very complicated machine, when you get right down to it, and learning the ins and outs of their functionality should only take a couple hours of fiddling, which is fun anyway.
I'm new here, but I'm no stranger to this debate.
Like RNB65, I'm unimpressed by this "ARs are unreliable" jazz. I've put close to 1,000 rounds through my mid-length RRA LAR-15, most of it Wolf (because I'm a poor college student), and I've had ONE feed problem. This came after firing nearly 400 rounds of Wolf 62gr JHP over the course of three extremely dusty and abusive days, and not having a chance to clean it. The chamber got kind of gunky, and the round had to be forward-assisted in. I did a quick-clean and fired another 100 rounds with nary a problem.
On the flip side, I have been unimpressed with the AK-47 (although admittedly I have only shot cheap Romanian semis). Call me crazy, but I like my bullets to go where I tell them to... Basically, the whole thing felt cheap (because it was) and its ergonomics weren't natural for a big American man like myself.
Neither gun is a very complicated machine, when you get right down to it, and learning the ins and outs of their functionality should only take a couple hours of fiddling, which is fun anyway.
Foxtrot427
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I wouldnt call the AR unreliable. Just on average less reliable than the AK. Less consistant durability. Little more refined and accurate but not the brutal shooter the AK is. Id trust a recently buried in the sand AK than an AR for sure. But if it meant taking out a bad guy at 100yds with irons offhand Id rather have an AR.
possum
Member
no matter which one you have it dosen't matter, if you can't shoot it or know how to empliment it in combat. than neither one will get you anywhere. for example the iraqi's spray and pray, good weapon but they don't know how to use what they have. they don't understand that a few well aimed shots beat a blast of full auto in almost every situation. but i won't hold it against them, they can keep missing me and my buddies all they want that is fine with me.
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