Another Glock Kaboom

[GW Staar]

Since the source was handloaded ammo, the likelihood of a double charge is the obvious choice. In spite of all the "unsupported head" stuff about Glock pistols, there are about a trillion handloaded rounds shot in Glocks every year. What is more interesting would be to find out what type of press was the ammo loaded on. There are a couple of different "manually indexing" presses on the market and about 90% of the KABOOMS I have read about were loaded on a manually indexed press. It is important to note that it is not a faulty press design. It is an OPERATOR ERROR. Just something to think about.

I tend to agree with your observations after reading all the O.P's (in the AR-15 thread) posts. He said it was a brand new Dillon. Others assumed it to be a manual indexing 550. O.P. admitted that it was probably operator error, plus he didn't refute the 550 assumptions. Titegroup would be easy to double charge on a manual, and it wouldn't spill powder.

My RCBS was bought as a manual indexer, with the auto-index kit. (nobody had the factory auto-index in stock for 4 months in year-one-Obama, when I purchased it.) I could see the potential of such a thing happening to me (good to know one's limitations)...so my manual indexing days.....was one. Too bad Dillon doesn't make an auto-index kit for the 550. Bet it would sell well.

I was leaning toward bullet setback or a weakened case since the damage to the gun was less than what I've seen before in double-charge incidents....but I have to admit...I haven't see many .45acp kaboom pictures. Most of them are .40 S&W.

 

[noylj]

I see too many people playing the "game" of ipsc and idpa using heavy for the cartridge bullets and extremely fast for cartridge powders. Any error, even a slight case of bullet set-back, will raise pressure into the 60+ ksi range.
How many are shooting .40s using N310, Clays, Titegroup, and Solo 1000? I can't wait for them to discover R-1 or AA N100.
When gaming is more important than safe-and-sane handloading, it will always cause the weaker to be eliminated.
Loading for the .40 should start no faster than 231/HP38 and really should be in the Silhouette/HS6/Power Pistol region.
I know of no other cartridge, even the 9x19, is as temperamental and quick to bite the hand that feeds it as .40S&W.

 

[LiveLife]

When many seasoned match shooters/reloaders use fast burning powders for match loads, it may give new reloaders the impression that, "Heck, if they use it, it must be good." and prompt them to do the same.

What they don't realize is that some match shooters "have" to use Titegroup to make power factor velocities "knowing" the consequences (fast burning, tight load range, double charge possibilities, pressure spikes, etc.). It is one of many reasons why I switched from 9mm to 40S&W - to better meet power factor without using max/over max load data, even when using lower velocity producing W231/HP-38. Many match shooters use particular combination of equipment/powder/charges for specific purpose after doing some deliberate research/work up. Just because they do it does not mean everyone else can also. Check out the 9mm Major thread on Brian Enos (20 pages and growing) and see what's involved to make 124 gr bullet go 1300+ fps - http://www.brianenos.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=12740

Heck, some match shooters are so frugal that they say they use Titegroup because it uses less powder charge than other powders like W231/HP-38.

When I was being taught to reload by my seasoned Bullseye shooter mentor on Dillon 550 and Pro 1000, he made sure that I advanced the shellplate manually on the 550. Next to cost, it was the auto index feature that made me select the Pro 1000 to load on because the only way I could double charge on the auto-indexed press was to turn back the shellplate and recharge the same case.

 

[Strykervet]

That's overpressure for sure. I have some brass that was fired in a .40 Glock that was loaded way over and it didn't blow out, but it bulged JUST like that brass did --it almost blew, but it held.

If you over charge the case, and .45 is easy, you can expect this. The .45ACP is supposed to be a low pressure round.

 

[Bovice]

I still don't see how it's so difficult to stay "in the lines" given by the manufacturer of a powder, fast or slow burning. I have an automatic indexing press, there's no way to double charge a case unless I'm moving it purposely back to double it. I could not care less about how much it fills the case. I could not care less that my 9mms are not flying down range at 1300 fps out of a 4 inch barrel. Words can't describe how stupid that is.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with using a faster burning powder following the directions of the powder manufacturer. Trust me, I've loaded my fair share of auto pistol rounds. Even the .40s which are so quick to "bite the hand that feeds". Never had any undesired result.

Yes, it is less expensive to use a "fast" powder loaded within specs. More power to you if you take advantage of that. You'll get more out of a jug of powder. More is always better!

This is not rocket science. With responsible reloading, you can use any burn-rate powder you would like to that fits the application (rifle/pistol/shotshell). As reloaders, we're supposed to be on the brainier side anyway. But it's still not hard.

 

[GW Staar]

This is not rocket science. With responsible reloading, you can use any burn-rate powder you would like to that fits the application (rifle/pistol/shotshell). As reloaders, we're supposed to be on the brainier side anyway. But it's still not hard.

Valid points, what you say is certainly true. But accidents happen thanks to Murphy's Law. "If it's possible for something to go wrong it will." Trouble is, I'm still looking for a perfect person, who doesn't have to worry about Murphy and his damned law.

I understand that there are many pro shooters who reload on the edge, and get away with it....maybe even learned (or watched a competitor learn) a few lessons the hard way (they're not perfect either). I also understand any powder listed in the powder or bullet manufacturers' loading data (especially starting loads) is pretty safe as long as other factors don't bite you. (bullet setback, case damage or weakness, case volume, wrong primers, wrong bullet, etc., etc.)

But I think people are just saying that casual reloaders who have gotten the progressive bug, and who happen to buy a brand new dillon or RCBS manual progressive so he can reload more, may better off using a powder that's more forgiving and difficult to double charge, since a boo boo is going to happen sometime. Maybe the cat jumps on the bench in the middle of your session, or the neighbor comes over to waste an hour. Thing is, powder spilling and overflowing the case, during a double charge, is likely to get the loader's attention, and make him stop and start over.

Changing the subject, just slightly: One of the least known about, and dangerous "other factors" is bullet setback. Two sub-factors there. Does the reloader know how to mount bullets the correct length (leaving proper volume behind the bullet), and does he know how to create proper bullet tension between the bullet and the case.

Related to that...is the dubious habit of chambering the same round over and over because it is at the top of the stack in the magazine. Such rechambering can and does cause bullet setback. That might mean that only one of an otherwise safe batch of ammo.....isn't safe.

 

[Master Blaster]

For folks who think you can't load a squibb, or a double charge on an auto index press, well folks you can. A squibb is easy if you have a problem with the powder thrower, and a double charge is also possible if you work the handle only part-way. Both are possible on a LNL just like they are possible on a 550. It all comes down to paying attention when you are reloading.

 

[LiveLife]

I agree. Learning how each reloading tool operates and properly using them is sound reloading practice. Deviate from proper/safe equipment operation by distractions/rushing to reload is trouble waiting to happen - a squib with another round fired or a double charge will ruin your day (not to mention your pistol and your pride).

When in doubt, clear your shell plate and clear your head - then start over with station #1.

 

[GW Staar]

For folks who think you can't load a squibb, or a double charge on an auto index press, well folks you can. A squibb is easy if you have a problem with the powder thrower, and a double charge is also possible if you work the handle only part-way. Both are possible on a LNL just like they are possible on a 550. It all comes down to paying attention when you are reloading.

Absolutely! ....and ditto for any other progressive.

I agree. Learning how each reloading tool operates and properly using them is sound reloading practice. Deviate from proper/safe equipment operation by distractions/rushing to reload is trouble waiting to happen - a squib with another round fired or a double charge will ruin your day (not to mention your pistol and your pride).

What we're getting here is important food for thought. Giving new progressive reloaders...and even experienced ones....or [both], the info needed to not experience this sort of thing. [Reloading wise, I'm 40 going on 3...IOW, 40 years of single stage, but only 3 years progressive] I'm experienced enough to recognize that progressives require diligent focus beyond what I was used to using a single. Squibbs, and double loads are obvious using a batch method on a single station press.

New reloaders starting out with a progressive (manual or auto advance) especially need the good advice in this thread.

The last word is BDS's words of wisdom.

When in doubt, clear your shell plate and clear your head - then start over with station #1.

 

[Bovice]

minimum OALs for a powder/caliber/bullet are typically listed in any reloading data manual you might pick up. Don't go lower than that. On the other end of the spectrum, the maximum OAL shouldn't be exceeded either (except in some guns that may allow it) simply because it won't properly chamber. I like to go right in the middle of the minimum OAL and the maximum OAL. That way, it's sure to fit in the magazines and won't have feed trouble no matter what gun I use it in.

 

[Choice]

That's the reason I buy storm lake barrels for all my glocks

 

[RugerNut9]

Wow I double charged a .357 mag yesterday but I caught it before I pressed the bullet in, then I was questioning the last three that I did. Sometimes you zone out haha well I guess it goes to show..... Don't drink and drive and don't drink and reload.

 

[tahco gunworks]

This happened to me a few weeks ago. I was told 3.0 grains of 'Clays' and a heavy 147 gr. bullet would produce a light shooting load for IDPA matches.

Clays then I learn, was extremely unstable and the worst powder to use in a 9mm.

I was lucky. And no this was not a double load as I measure each load by hand. Sometimes it's not a double load that causes the problem.

 

[GW Staar]

Wow! How bad was the gun....any damage to you? What gun was that shot out of?

Anyone else ever have "unstable" experience with light loads using clays? Some people shoot an awful lot of clays in .45 acp pistols.

 

[GLOOB]

What they don't realize is that some match shooters "have" to use Titegroup to make power factor velocities "knowing" the consequences (fast burning, tight load range, double charge possibilities, pressure spikes, etc.).

I don't agree with this. To get more velocity, you generally want to use a slower powder. People using Titegroup to make major 9 are not doing it because they need to. There are a lot of safer powders to achieve this.

Generally, faster powders like Titegroup are valued for inherently greater accuracy and cleanliness at powder puff velocities/recoil-levels (and the penny pincher's saving of a couple bucks per 1k rounds.) A lot of people find Titegroup/Bullseye to produce the most accurate ammo for their guns. And it probably is the easiest to shoot accurately. But a slower powder loaded to its sweet spot might be just as inherently accurate... only with more recoil (and velocity).

I was told 3.0 grains of 'Clays' and a heavy 147 gr. bullet would produce a light shooting load for IDPA matches.

Fast powders and heavy bullets ARE the best recipe for light recoil, IME. But there is a point of diminishing returns/safety. And it sounds like this load wasn't worked up, correctly. The exact OAL will have a big impact on pressure.

 

[Shmackey]

Clays isn't "unstable." It's unforgiving in that it has a narrow window between minimum and maximum charge. If you load the right amount of powder and seat the bullet to the right depth, you're good.

Clays is my go-to powder for .45 ACP.

 

[Strykervet]

I have some .45 and .40 brass that was RBCD factory ammo from several years ago. They must overload the stuff as it came or comes with all kinds of warnings (so they are aware of it but still make it!?) and it bulged the cases something fierce. They were so bulged that they look like the picture of the blown out .45 except they didn't fail. They were fired from a G27 and had abnormal recoil. So that is how they get 2000fps in case you wondered.

I can tell by looking at that case that it is most DEFINITELY an overcharge. If it were weak, it wouldn't have blown out that way where the case bulges and then fails. He also mentions using a Dillon press, much easier to overload using a progressive than doing 'em one at a time on a single stage.

I load for Glocks too, in fact, almost all my pistol loads are shot in Glocks. I load some near max and max loads in 10mm in new brass with no bulging out of the ordinary. After I use it a couple of times for stronger loads, it gets used for target ammo, which I generally load much lighter. 100's of rounds in 10mm, factory G29, no problems at all.

The .45ACP is a very low pressure round, so doubling the charge could most definitely do that. I like the +P brass even for practice loads, just to be on the safe side. Unlike 9mm +P brass, the .45 stuff is actually tougher/different than the standard .45ACP.

 

[GaryL]

For folks who think you can't load a squibb, or a double charge on an auto index press, well folks you can. A squibb is easy if you have a problem with the powder thrower, and a double charge is also possible if you work the handle only part-way. Both are possible on a LNL just like they are possible on a 550. It all comes down to paying attention when you are reloading.

That is the exact reason I've gone to powders that fill the case, and take a peek into every one (even rifle) before seating a bullet. It takes very little time.

Anyway, the goal for me is to mistake proof the process as much as possible. Cause of that damn Murphy guy. Who invited him anyway?

 

[Sheepdog1968]

I've never trusted reloads. I'm also not a fan of modifying much beyond sights on a factory gun. And yes, I am a bit overcautions in general. It seems when I hear of issues like this it either involves reloads or a modified pistol.

 

[snuffy]

For folks who think you can't load a squibb, or a double charge on an auto index press, well folks you can. A squibb is easy if you have a problem with the powder thrower, and a double charge is also possible if you work the handle only part-way. Both are possible on a LNL just like they are possible on a 550. It all comes down to paying attention when you are reloading.

False! At least as the dillon 650 is concerned. The powder bar is only activated when there's a case present, at the top of the stroke. The powder bar is re-set only at the very bottom of the ram travel. By then the auto advance has turned the shell plate. You can short stroke it all you want, all you're going to get is one powder charge per the rams complete stroke. You could, of course, reach up to manually operate the powder bar. But why would you want to purposely cause a double charge?

 

[35 Whelen]

This happened to me a few weeks ago. I was told 3.0 grains of 'Clays' and a heavy 147 gr. bullet would produce a light shooting load for IDPA matches.

Clays then I learn, was extremely unstable and the worst powder to use in a 9mm.

Whoever told you to use 3.0 grs. of Clays behind a 147. gr bullet in a 9mm was wrong, and whoever told you Clays is unstable likewise was wrong.

I checked Hodgdon's website for Clays data with a 147 gr. bullet in a 9mm and they showed none. I checked the latest Lyman manual and there was no data for the 147 gr. jacketed bullet, but they did show 2.8 grs. as a compressed, MAX load with their 147 gr. cast bullet. Generally speaking cast bullets, grain for grain produce less pressure than jacketed bullets with identical loads. So if your 3.0 grs load was was over max with a cast bullet, then it stands to reason it was WAY over max with a jacketed bullet.

As far as Clays being unstable, that's hogwash. I've used it in my 38 Special, my 9mm (with 124 gr. bullets), and my 45 ACP with zero problems. I've also used it for light 12 ga. target loads again with no problems. Just follow the load data and everything is normal.

35W

 

[tahco gunworks]

Clays has a history of blowing up guns when used in 9 mm. Do a search and you will see plenty.

I was only trying something new, and won't use Clays again for 9 mm, I have heard it's fine for 45 ACP, maybe a few 40 loads and shotgun.

Glock 19C, it blew out the mag, and made my hand numb for awhile.

I was using plated 147's and shot many that day. The blow out happened when it was over 115 in the afternoon here in Texas. Further research with the manufacturer confirms that Clays is very temperature sensitive.

No the 3.0 load was not too much, as 2.8 wouldn't even cycle the slide. 2.9 barely cycled it, thus 3.0 was settled on.

No problem with setback as all loads were lightly crimped and COAL was a generous 1.169 (works fine in a Glock, and there is still about .020 from the front of the bullet to the rifling.

End result, I won't use Clays for 9 mm, it's too unpredictable and even though it felt like a 22, this was not a powder for this application.

By the way, I was at an IDPA match last Sunday, and when I shared my story about my Clay's problem, there were two others that had the same issue, one lost the gun, the other cracked the slide.

Internet sometimes pukes bad information.

 

[GW Staar]

Glad you are OK. The location of the blowout makes one wonder if a fully supported chamber would have prevented the accident.

On the other hand, it vented things down the mag....away from your eyes.

On the other hand, venting things down the stack has sometimes lit rounds below for a bigger badder experience.

Bottom line....we all have to learn from these experiences if we don't want to repeat them.

 

[Master Blaster]

False! At least as the dillon 650 is concerned. The powder bar is only activated when there's a case present, at the top of the stroke. The powder bar is re-set only at the very bottom of the ram travel. By then the auto advance has turned the shell plate. You can short stroke it all you want, all you're going to get is one powder charge per the rams complete stroke. You could, of course, reach up to manually operate the powder bar. But why would you want to purposely cause a double charge?

You can stiil load a Squibb, or have the indexing fail, any mechanical device can fail, thats why you have to pay attention.

 

[FullEffect1911]

Try WSF for 147 grain lead 9mm loads. I've had excellent results with it and my Glock w/ a Storm Lake barrel. Relatively slow burning powder that seems to really like lead bullets.