Another question about an old S&W wheelgun ---

[Nikdfish]

I just finished the "Can somebody tell me what my new gun is?" thread and it reminded me of some questions I had about a gift I received a few years back. Rather that hijack the thread, I'm starting a new one.

Some older neighbors (who have since passed) knew I was a bit of a gun buff and gave this to me as a kind of "thankyou" gift. I really didn't get much of a history on its origins. It appears to be a nickel finish, with some finish damage at the top right rear of the frame.

The top of the barrel is imprinted with:
Smith & Wesson Springfield Mass USA Patented Oct.8.01 Dec.17.01 Feb.8.06 Sept.14.09 Dec.28.14
and on the side of the barrel:
*38 S&W SPECIAL CTG*

The six digit serial on the butt appears to be all numeric - no letters or symbols. No other marks other than the smallish S&W logo on the left side plate.







So far, I haven't found an exact match on the internet.

Nick

 

[hexidismal]

Well its definitely a Military & Police. I think its a Model 1905 .38 4th change.

Edited: I stand corrected about the round butt introduction date.

 

[Hutch]

The first 3 or 4 digits of the S/N would help. S&W got to 6 digits in the early 20's, IIRC, but my Standard Catalog ain't here. They went to a "V" alpha prefix in Feb of '42 (also IIRC). Is that a 6" barrel? It looks longer, but I am unaware of any M&P's w/ longer than 6" bbls.

 

[Jim K]

The serial number without a prefix/suffix and that hammer should date it to the 1930's. That it is the .38 HE M&P 1905 4th change is indicated by the 1914 patent date. Production began in 1915. Both round and square butts were available, as they had been in previous changes.

Jim

 

[Oro]

The ejector rod style makes it pre-'31. The grips, if original (should have the s/n inside the right panel in pencil or stamped), would date it to '20 to '29. The lack of a one-line address ("Made in USA") on the right of the frame would make it pre-'21. If it's all original, I'm going with 1920 or 1921.

This was made before the heat treating of the cylinders was standardized. Don't shoot +p loads in it.

 

[Nikdfish]

The SN on the butt is 3580xx. When I removed the grips I found the same number hand written in pencil on the lower portion of the right grip.

The only imprinting on the frame is the SN on the butt & the small S&W trademark on the left side. All other printing is on the barrel.

It is possible that it was originally carried by a WV Dept. of Public Safety motorcycle officer who was related to one of the neighbors, based on a rather sepia toned family photo. They didn't know for certain whether it was a duty piece or a personal item.

I appreciate these insights into this handgun's origins.

Nick

 

[XavierBreath]

It was common for the folks at S&W to pencil in the serial number to grips during this era, as the grips were fitted to the individual grip frames prior to the gun being finished.

The nickel finish on your Model of 1905 4th change appears to be original. Avoid copper solvents like the plague on this gun, as well as ammonia based cleaners. Either will ruin the nickel.

Heat treatment of the Model of 1905 4th Change .38 Special cylinders began at about serial number 316648. This information from Supica's Standard Catalog of Smith & Wesson is important to know, even if it is an educated guess. Serial numbers prior to that figure may not be safe to use with modern .38 special ammunition. This change occurred in September, 1919.

The "Made In USA" mark appeared on the Model of 1905 in May, 1922. Prior to that date, there were no markings placed on that area of the frame by the factory.

I think it would be safe to say your revolver left Smith & Wesson between September 1919 and May, 1922. For $30, Roy Jinks can provide you with an indisputable letter detailing this revolver. It's the best investment you can make in an old S&W.

Where I live I would expect this old M&P to sell between $350 and $400. Add an extra $100 if you have the original box.

 

[Old Fuff]

Ya know you're getting good at this. I should take a vacation.

One other point. This revolver has walnut stocks, which aren't rare - but are uncommon on round butt K-frame revolvers. Usually they came with black hard-rubber molded stocks. Walnut stocks were standard on the square butt version from the beginning.

 

[Nikdfish]

I'll resurrect this thread to post an update ...

I got my letter from Roy Jinks (the historian at Smith & Wesson) the other day. The portion specific to this particular revolver follows:

We have researched your Smith & Wesson .38 Military & Police Model of 1905 Fourth Change, caliber .38 S&W Special, revolver in company records which indicate that your handgun, with serial number 3580xx, was shipped from our factory on December 4, 1920, and delivered to Belknap Hardware Co., Louisville, KY. The records indicate that this firearm was shipped with a 6 inch barrel, nickel finish, and checkered walnut round butt grips.

Nick

 

[Brian Williams]

Nice gun, sweet grips and great letter and try to get and keep as much provenence as you can.
I would love to find one just like it in blue with the 6 inch barrel and round grips.

 

[XavierBreath]

Thanks Nikdfish! Sweet gun!

I have a square butt pre-war M&P, nickel, 6 inch, very similar. It's a tack driver. I would post pics, but I don't want to start that in your thread.

 

[S&W32289]

same gun!

nick i have a s&w with all the same.Patented Oct.8.01 Dec.17.01 Feb.8.06 Sept.14.09 Dec.28.14 it was handed down through my family my great grandfather all the way down to me.

 

[David Carr]

38

I'm so glad I found this page. I have one just like it I have been trying to find out a little on the one I have that was left to me by my grandfather.

It looks just like the one you have, But S#'s start with 3539## And place where the Model # are have 66365

Do you think it may be about the same age ??

Thanks,
David Carr

 

[Radagast]

David Carr: Yes,with that serial number 1920 sounds about right. 66365 is an assembly number used to track fitted parts in the factory and irrelevant once the gun is complete. Model numbers were introduced in 1957 which is why there is no model number stamped under the frame.

 

[dodrums]

S&W 38 special 1905 value

I have almost the exact piece with serial very close to this one. What would be the honest approximate value of this piece? I have the original leather military holster that goes with this piece - given to me by my 93 yr old father-in--law. A real treasure piece in almost perfect condition for its age.

 

[Radagast]

dodrums:
The Standard Catalog of S&W gave the following values in 2006: Very Good $250, Excellent $335, Excellent Plus $450, As New In Box $1200. A period holster may add value in the eyes of a collector. For more current prices check out completed sales on Auction Arms, Gun Broker and Guns America.