Anybody have an AR in 6.5 Grendel?

[Sam Adams]

The 6.5 Grendel is one of the new calibers for the AR-15 family, and according to the site set up for this caliber http://www.65grendel.com/ there are uppers already available. My question is this: Has anyone yet gotten one and shot it? If so, what do you like/dislike about it? How is your accuracy? Have you shot the factory ammo, or handloaded, and which produces better accuracy?

Thanks, in advance, for any comments.

 

[Sam Adams]

Anyone? Anyone? Bueller?

 

[Risasi]

Dollars???

The question is how much for the upper?

Oly Arms quoted me $579 for a .300 Whisper/Fireball upper about six months back. (16" barrel) If you're going to so subsonic, yeah baby!!

And Tromix is selling .458 SOCOM. It was a bit steep, but I think 458 SOCOM does suddenly make the AR "suitable for sporting purposes"...put that in your pipe and smoke it Kerry. Just don't inhale...

We need prices...my idea was to put together a Rock River lower, and mate it to whatever upper I desire.

 

[Sam Adams]

If you go to the Grendel site you'll see that the prices for the upper range from $875 to $1295. OUCH! Of course, right now there is little or no competition - this should change, and certainly will IF the armed services adopt this cartridge to replace the 5.56mm poodle-shooter. Given the superior ballistics of the 6.5 mm vs. literally anything in the current inventory for individual rifles, I hope that this will be done soon. It is also a very flat-shooting cartidge, ideal for sniping or long-range engagements. But the cost is why I want to know if anyone has obtained one of the uppers and what they think of it.

Regarding subsonic - the idea is to AVOID going subsonic. Once this threshold is breached, the round becomes less accurate. The 6.5 Grendel doesn't go subsonic until about 1400 yards out.

 

[Zak Smith]

For long range shooting, you want the bullet to stay supersonic as long as possible to stay stable.

For shooting with a suppressor, the subsonic MV will be quieter.

-z

 

[Risasi]

Yeah, that's the beauty on the ol' tweaked .30 apache (.300 Whisper/Fireball). With an aftermarket gas tube the round can be loaded for the circumstance.

You can push a 240+ grain slug down range at just under the magic 1040. Or load some 110's hot and sling them at 2300-2400fps.

The idea is most engagements with intermediate cartridge semi/select fire rifles occur at what is it? 150 yards or less?

This is more than adequate for that. Decent sized hole, can be loaded for the particular area it will be used. Sometimes a quiet gun comes in handy. Sometime you feel like a nut, sometime you don't. Wait that didn't come out right..



Okay, and the 458 SOCOM. The .50 definitely packs more whallop. But I limited my choice to these two for the reason that you can use standard AR mags with both of these rounds. Plus doesn't this automatically mean if you have a 458 you don't REALLY own 30 mags anymore? No officer these are 7 round 458 SOCOM magazines, that I use for my AR hunting rifles. <evil laugh> I could see where this might come in handy in California. Build a gun to suit the market.

Either way though, I'll still have to give the Grendel some serious thought now. Or buy all three...hmm.

 

[WalkerTexasRanger]

I do have one on order. Supposed to ship this month actually. I am looking very forward to putting it to the test. I must say, I am fortunate to have shot the predecessor to this cartridge, a 6.5 PPC in an AR platform.

Very accurate, little recoil, mucho firepower.

I will post about my experiences just as soon as it arrives and we make our way to the range...

Good Shooting!!!

WTR

 

[MeekandMild]

This sounds really interesting. But Grendel? Why not 6.5 Brennen or 6.5 Alexander-Brennen or 6.5 Lapua? There is a long tradition to name cartridges after their inventor or first producer.

What happens if you're competing against somebody shooting a .50 Beowulf, then you'd lose for sure?

 

[Sam Adams]

WalkerTexasRanger

I'm looking forward to hearing about your range outing - but probably nowhere near as much as you are to actually being there. Thanks also for posting about your prior 6.5 mm experience.

 

[atek3]

I read someone poo pooing the 'short and fat case' of the 26 grendel out of an autoloader. They said it would be far more likely to suffer feeding problems than say 223 or 308. any comments y'all?

atek3

 

[JShirley]

Well, we know how the short and fat 7.62x39mm has a horrible reputation for malfing...

 

[Ed]

SGN has some uppers advertized for around $400. sounds good to me.

 

[Risasi]

In 6.5 Grendel!! Where!

Give a name/number (PLEASE).

Okay I had pretty much decided on the 300 Whisper, but if this caliber is as interesting as it looks, and can be had to $400 on the upper done deal.

 

[Ed]

Ok I have a SGN subscription so its my April 1 issue it will be the April 12 newsstand issue. Page 55 from Model 1 sales has CAR 6.8 mm uppers for $355 and A2 or A3 20" uppers for $355 alsoM4 type are $410. These don't have CH and Bolt Assemblys but those are $100. So basicly its good for $455. I don't know about mags, if standard AR mags work or not, but Barrettrifles on page 3 of the same issue has 5,10 and 28 round mags.
www.barrettrifles.com. Now I'm saving for one also. Oh. Model 1 sales has pre and post ban.

 

[Risasi]

Okay, thanks for the post. But that's 6.8mm. In this thread we are interested in the 6.5 Grendel.

It looks like Arne Brennen is also selling uppers too. He is the guy who initially got the 6.5 working in the AR. Then talked to Bill Alexander. I can't see how I can go wrong going straight to original guy that built this monster.

His prices look reasonable.

6.5 Grendel uppers start at $875

.50 Beowulf uppers start at $655

http://www.competitionshootingsports.com/

Okay, here is what I am thinking; It looks like the Grendel was designed for 24" barrels. Long range shooting, so who cares. I'm thinking about getting the 6.5 in 24", and also a .50 Beowulf at the same time. It looks like they should both drop right on my lower. The Beowulf's have to have the the mag tweaked. Which granted 20 and 30 rounders are cheap enough I guess. So a little over $1500 and I can increase the potency on my AR from 0-1000 yards. This is my initial knee-jerk reaction to finding out about the 6.5.

I'm still not totally convinced yet, as the .300 Whisper also has a lot of potential. What I need to decide is if I'll ever have some fun going sub-sonic. If so I could drop the 458SOCOM/50Beowulf idea and get the 300 instead. As I consider 300Whisper, 458 and .50Beo to all be 200 yard or less cartridges.

But there is the versatility of taking the .300 supersonic though that just keeps nagging at me. It's still coasting a 240gr slug around 1200fps at 400 yards. And it uses .221 brass. I am pretty sure the only internals changed are the barrel, and adding an adjustable gas tube.

I don't see the 6.8 in my future, it's fine if I didn't already have an AR, and wanted some sort of middle of the road round.

 

[Ed]

I'm sorry, Guess I don't pay attention enough. Just saw the 2 adds for the new round.

 

[atek3]

look at the 7.62x39 and .26 grendel side by side. 7.62x39 has a seriously tapered case and a 17 degree shoulder. The 26 grendel has a sharper shoulder and no taper. I'm pretty sure one of the first reviews of the 'beta' version of the cartridge gave failures to feed with the heaviest lapua scenar.

atek3

 

[TX65]

Hi everyone,

The 6.5 Grendel will begin shipping sometime in April. Bill Alexander and I are working on the final load pressure testing of the factory ammo as well as some final refinement on the match versions based on downrange ballistics tests run on a number of 6.5mm bullets out to 600 yards.

Reading through the thread,, some general comments,

- Walker Texas Ranger has fired the original prototype rifle on more then a few occasions.

- The 6.5 Grendel and 7.62x39 only share a common case head diameter, nothing more. The 7.62x39 has a pronounced body taper which will not work well in any AR15 due to the straight section of the magazine required for the magazine well. The 6.5 Grendel does a perfect double stack in the magazines and 10 round magazines are available for the civilian market. An 18 round magazine that is the same size as a .223 Rem 20 rounder and a 25 round magazine that is the same size as a .223 Rem 30 round magazine are around too for LE and DOD.

- The 6.5 Grendel can operate in everything from 12 inch barrels out to 28 inch barrels due to the very complete combustion of the powder.

- Why wasn't the cartridge named 6.5 Brennan / Alexander or 6.5 Alexander / Brennan? Actually, never considered naming it after ourselves,,, Besides naming it after a mythical monster has it's own appeal.

Feel free to email me at [email protected] if you have any questions.

Arne

 

[Risasi]

Hi Arne,

Thanks for the post. One quick question. What is the optimum length barrel to use with the 6.5 Grendel, to acheive the best performance (i.e. speed) out of this round? I am actually considering selling my Sako in 30-378, but want to know all the ins and outs of this slug before I proceed.

Also I believe I read you are pushing internal pressures around 43,000psi? Do you forsee building a more robust version? Say maybe built on the AR-10 platform. I could see where this might allow for a hotter load. So far I've acheived about 3450+fps, with 180gr Barnes-X slugs. Of course I'm just thinking out loud now.

Also I figured you named the Grendel to counter the Beowulf naturally. I suppose the next round will be named after Grendel's mother? Although as I think about it I don't know she has a name other than Grendel's mother...hmm. Nevermind, that doesn't sound like it would catch on.

 

[TX65]

The highest velocity with the 6.5 Grendel will come from the 28 inch barrel national match version. However, that is really best suited for pure competition in f-class, prone and highpower matches.

For most users, the 24 inch provides the best balance of velocity, flexibility and mobility. However, going as short as 18.5 inch can be done if increased compactness is desired without loosing too much velocity. Different applications and missions will require different barrel lengths.

The initial chamber was long throated and loads generated pressures in area of 42,000 PSI. The production 6.5 Grendel has had the throat shortened and pressures have increased into the area of 46,000-48,000 PSI with increased accuracy in factory ammunition. This higher pressure still leaves room for safe development of match loads while keeping within the bolt thrust limits of the AR15. However, most users will find that outstanding performance can be realized without pushing velocity. Keep in mind, that the military 7.62 NATO 175 MK sniper load is running about 2600 fps in a 24 inch barrel and that bullet has a .496 BC. In contrast, the Lapua 123 Scenar in the 6.5 Grendel has a .547 BC can be comfortably run faster in an equal length barrel. You give up some terminal energy in comparison to the 7.62 NATO, but you also loose half the recoil and 32% of the ammo weight.

There would be no reason to build a 6.5 Grendel into an AR10 since the 6.5-08 (aka 260 Remington) can already be chambered in that rifle. However, there are possibilities of a 6.5 Grendel bolt action rifle being produced which would not have the same pressure / bolt thrust restrictions as an AR15.

The Grendel is actually related to Beowulf... Grendel was Beowulf's mother.

 

[0007]

TX -
How would you compare the 6.5 Grendel to the 6X45 from a ballistic stand point? Thanks.

 

[Sam Adams]

TX65

I hope that you are preparing to manufacture the 18- and 25-round mags for sale to the civilian market after the AWB expires.

Do you have any idea when the 6.5 Grendel may come out in a boltie? Also, is a boltie even necessary, i.e. how good is the accuracy at long ranges from the match rifles? (and, yes, I know - accuracy depends on about 100 different factors, you mileage may vary, etc. - I'm just looking for a general idea).

Thanks so much for coming out with this round - I'll be getting an upper when I get the money together (which may be awhile, as child #2 will be coming shortly). I've known for a long time that the 6.5mm round is one of the most theoretically accurate ones out there, given the BCs available, but there were no robust semi-autos produced in large numbers for it. Now I can easily see getting a boltie in 6.5 mm, maybe new and maybe a war-surplus Swedish Mauser. One downside to all of this - my wife will grow to hate you (she likes shooting, but would rather buy shoes and cookware).

 

[TX65]

How would I compare the 6.5 Grendel to a 6x45?

I think the first comparison to make in answering this question would be how does the 6x45 compare to a 6mm PPC and then how does the 6mm PPC compare to the 6.5 Grendel. The 6mm PPC offers a 10% increase in case capacity over the 6x45 and the 6.5 Grendel offers just under 10% more case capacity then the 6mm PPC. These increases in case capacity are significant and yield great velocity potential. However, even more key in terms of efficiency is the design of the PPC and Grendel case. Often the terms "short and fat" are used to sell a cartridge saying it will be more accurate, but just make a cartridge shorter does not make it better. There are mathmatical relationships of powder column width and height as they relate to ignition. Dr. Lou Palmisano and Ferris Pindell did extensive work in designing the PPC and testing the relationship that have led to it's dominance in benchrest competition. The 6.5 Grendel is an improved version of the PPC which perserves the mathmatical relationships of the 6mm PPC, but in 6.5 mm. Now in terms of performance, the 6 PPC generally will run 10-20% faster then the 6x45. What the 6.5 Grendel does is drive an equal weight bullet at the same velocities as a 6 PPC, but does so with less pressure and in the AR15, pressure has to be watched to prevent reaching unacceptable and unsafe levels of bolt thrust especially as you increase case diameter.

This actually answers another question that has come up,,, why not make a 6mm Grendel so people can run a Sierra 107 MK which has a .531 BC? Without going through all the mathmatics, a 6mm Grendel would operate at 5%-10% greater pressure (then a 6.5 Grendel) raising bolt thrusts levels by the same amount. At an equal pressure, the 6.5 Grendel can push a equal weight bullet faster then a 6mm Grendel. Actually, a 6.5 Grendel can push a bullet such as a Lapua 123 grain Scenar at a velocity equal to what can be acheived with a 6mm version shooting a 107 grain bullet. Given that the Lapua 123 has a .542 BC, the combination of slightly greater BC and increased mass yields better downrange performance in terms of energy and wind deflection. Of course, the real benefit of the 6.5 Grendel comes into play when you can push bullets like the Norma 130 VLD with a .591 BC at slower velocity and match what can be achieved with a 6mm 107 (.531 BC) fired from a larger cartridge at a higher velocity.

How good is accuracy at long range? Yes, accuracy is dependant on alot of factors including most importantly the person squeezing the trigger. By definition, a highpower match rifle with a good marksman behind the trigger should acheive .5 MOA accuracy at all ranges of fire. That being said, the 6.5 Grendel has acheieved outstanding accuracy out to 1,000 yards. 6.5mm bullets just fly great out to long ranges as proven by cartridges like the 6.5-284, 6.5-08, 6.5-06, 6.5x55 and 264 Win Mag.

As far as what happens in September with larger capacity magazines,,, that decision will be made by Alexander Arms in September based on many factors including what happens and what may happen following what happens.

 

[MeekandMild]

Arne,

Have you tested any round nosed, soft pointed or ballistic tipped bullets in it yet, and if so, what were the results? Also, are there any plans to sell various factory hunting loads? (my reloading supplies are still in storage after I moved out to the country).

On the face of it the 6.5 Grendel would seem like it might be a great choice for coyote, hogs and deer.

BTW, I still think that it should be named after its makers in the long tradition of American ballistic engineers.

 

[TX65]

Hi Meek,

The 6.5 Grendel is ideal with hunting bullets like the following

1. Hornady 95 VMAX & 129 SST
2. Nosler 100 & 120 Grain Ballistic Tip
3. Swift 120 A-Frame & coming 130 Scirrocco.

A factory Nosler 120 Ballistic Tip load is looking like 2600-2650fps which is great for deer and hogs out to 300 yards. The Nosler 120 BT and Hornady 129 SST are planned factory loads.

In addition, testing is underway on a wide variety of hunting bullets.

Thanks for the compliment on what Bill Alexander and I have worked on over the past years,, but there are many people who contributed to this including Dr. Lou Palmisano (The first P in PPC), William (Bill) Davis, Scott Medesha, and many others who offered ideas and input along the way. I think keeping the name after Beowulf's mother,,, a vicious monster,,, works.