Anyone carry with an empty chamber?

[gtd]

You guys worry too much . . . .

Unless you're a soldier or a cop under orders (for your own safety, by the way), do what makes sense in your particular situation at the time. In my case,

- Sometimes I carry, sometimes I don't.
- Sometimes chamber is empty, sometimes not.

I don't want to be like the deer hunters who shoot Girl Scouts or their own partners or children by mistake. If that means I'm sometimes at a disadvantage, so be it. Most of the time, if I carry with an empty chamber, I'm still at a significant advantage, and everyone, including me, is safe.

 

[91101]

Anyone carry with an empty chamber?

Yes... and I let the air out of my tires before I drive my car down the road too...

 

[Leibster]

Gary A,

in a thumb and forefinger fashion with the fingers below and the thumb on top of the pistol pointing toward the muzzle?

You are correct. The gun is rotated about 90 degrees to facilitate racking the slide, then turned back upright as it ranges through the cocking motion.

Hard to explain without pictures, but I hope you get the idea.

--Leibster

 

[Admiral Thrawn]

Yes... reduced risk of an AD (or ND), which I absolutely could not afford to happen...

Here in Australia, laws relating to guns are draconian, and there is no such thing as a CCW permit or even lawfully owning a firearm for "self-defence." You cannot buy a firearm without already being a member of a shooting club, and must attend a certain number of shooting events to keep your license; Not to mention that it takes about 4 months to get your license in the first place.

So obviously, if I were to carry, I would be doing it illegally, and an AD/ND while carrying illegally would not be a good combination.

Lastly, if I did need to use my firearm(s) in self-defence, I would just rack the slide and put it to use... If I didn't have time to do this, well that's too bad.

:banghead:

 

[cool45auto]

No. One in the chamber, safety off.

 

[outfieldjack]

NO!

I'm not that good at multi-tasking....... Aim and pull the trigger works for me.

 

[DrDremel]

Carry with a round in the chamber is the only logical approach. The handgun is used at close distances, distances where ½ a second can make a difference. Do you always have your hands free? Do doors always open on their own? Does your house open without keys? Do you never carry anything in your hands? Of coarse not. You do not always have the luxury of having both hands free. As for the suggestion of using one handed slide racking techniques, they are very slow compared to two handed racking and it takes much more dexterity. Those techniques are meant for situations where your off hand is disabled. To rely on those techniques is to handicap yourself. The Israelis use handguns as secondary weapons. Even if they are only armed with a handgun, they are doing military jobs, their main focus is aggressors, not grocery shopping, holding your kids, hand, etc. Military operations are not the same as civilian situations. Military forces are armed and ready to fight. They usually know they may be attacked and by whom. They may not know which person is the enemy but they have their primary weapon ready, loaded and safety on. As for Col. Cooper’s comment about the shotgun, that is for storage. It is stored with an empty chamber. As soon as it is picked up, it is racked. It is a two handed weapon. Your hand will already be on the weapon. No one advocates carrying a shotgun with an empty chamber. The israelis also carry their M16s. You will not hear about them carrying with an empty chamber. The comment about having the chamber empty so that if an attacker grabs your gun you will have time to react before he racks the slide, you are giving an attacker that does not grab your gun the time to attack before you can. Inside of 21 feet, an attacker can close on you faster than a trained professional can draw and fire with a loaded handgun in condition 1. Why add to that with any extra time. Look at police departments, how many are told to carry on an empty chamber? They must react to an attacker at close range when surprised. Secret Service would be a close comparison as well. They may go their whole carreer without needing to fend off an attacker, yet they have their handguns with a round in the pipe because they will have little time to react and every .1 seconds can make a difference. Maybe we should keep fire extinguishers in safes. That way no one can accidentally bump them off the wall. Maybe we should not wear seatbelts because we can buckle them if we see an accident coming.

 

[Leibster]

The Israelis use handguns as secondary weapons. Even if they are only armed with a handgun, they are doing military jobs, their main focus is aggressors, not grocery shopping, holding your kids, hand, etc.

DrDremel,

I don't know on what you're basing this, but I can tell you that it's not entirely accurate. It is true that the Israeli MILITARY uses handguns as secondary weapons, as does every military. but about 10% of the CIVILIAN population is licensed and armed, with handguns.

This would include, for example, the civilians at a cafe a while back who (from condition 3) stopped 3 AK-wielding terrorists from shooting more innocent civilians, and the civilian CCW holder who shot dead (from condition 3) a suicide bomber in a grocery store last year, just meters from my father-in-law.

Grocery shopping, holding their kids, etc. IS precisely the focus of the civilian sector. Israel is not a military force; it is a country similar to any other with a (proportionately) large army, due to the hostil neighborhood in which it finds itself.

In any event, handguns are relatively uncommon in the Israeli military, and are only issued to a select few units and used only when using an assault rifle or SMG is not an option. Just like here, the handgun is primarily a defensive weapon, not an offensive one.

--Leibster

 

[Handy]

And just to throw in, shotguns in the military ARE carried chamber empty because the pump is easier to work under stress than the safety lever. The opposite is true of handguns.

 

[Leibster]

Why is the slide harder to operate than the safety lever? Operating the slide is a gross motor skill. The safety lever is a complex motor skill. In cases of extreme stress, gross motor skills are easier to perform.

--Leibster

 

[Handy]

Um, because one takes two hands and the other one hand?

Or you could avoid both and carry a chambered DA pistol.

 

[arizona]

Colt SAA

The only pistol I carry with an empty chamber is my Colt 45 SAA.

 

[Leibster]

Um, because one takes two hands and the other one hand?

Handy,

It might take two hands to operate the slide, but it's not harder to operate than a safety lever. I agree DA is an option. So is cocked and locked. They both work, and work well. My only point when I got into this discussion is that so does condition 3!

--Leibster

 

[Handy]

Leibster,

It isn't hard to operate anything on any halfway decent auto. The slide is meant to pulled, the mag released, the safety removed.

Cond. 3 is obviously workable, since we are able to get bullets in the chamber. And it is much faster than loading an empty gun. But the two hand requirement is a severe limitation on a defensive arm. Notice that no one carries two handed folding knives any more.


So, do you Israelis HAVE to carry that way by law; no choice? Or do you all just agree with each other better than us Yanks?

 

[Leibster]

Handy,

There's no law (to my knowledge) about carrying condition 3 outside the military and police. But since former combat soldiers and police officers tend to be the instructors for the civilian sector, it's become the overwhelming method of carry.

I'm told that in the last few years that there is more loaded chamber carry going on. Probably new immigrants are getting into instructing.

I tend to agree that if the person is extremely responsible and careful, and follows the 4 safety rules, that chamber loaded is safe and has certain advantages over condition 3. (But I still almost always carry in condition 3) There are those, however, who lack the presence of mind to do so safely, and the results sometimes are disastrous.

From my limited reading, research and experience, however, I understand condition 3 carry is certainly a good choice for a whole group i.e. military or police units, who have people of varying levels of competence in them.

--Leibster

 

[Charles S]

No.

Wait sometimes when, no not then either.

I am not comfortable with Glocks, they are great guns just not for me.

I always have one in the chamber on a carry gun.

Charles

 

[Al Thompson]

Leibster, IMHO, the best idea would be to bring the competency level up for the entire group. Condition 3 carry is simply a bad carry over from the old days. No firearm I'm aware of is unsafe carryed with a round in the chamber. As to difficulty of training, thousands of IDPA/IPSC shooters (most self schooled) demonstrate their abilities weekly or monthly.

 

[Gary A]

Leibster - thanks for clarifying that for me. That's the way I remembered reading about it. Did a little practicing and decided there isn't a whole lot to argue about. It works pretty well. Are there circumstances where it would be a serious drawback? I'm sure there are, just like there are circumstances where the revolver toter too late wishes he had more rounds or some other equally disastrous scenario that can happen no matter what the plan. In the final analysis everyone has to decide for him/her self what method is best for their particular circumstances, comfort level, and skills. It would seem, however, that if one decided to go condition three, they might want to use that method exclusively and practice a lot. Although it would be better to rack the slide on a loaded chamber and drop a round on the ground than to pull the da trigger on an empty chamber. In other words, if one uses the "Israeli" method, they probably should seriously commit to it and hone that muscle memory to a fine edge. I think it would work in all but the rarest situations for most people. Everything is a trade-off. Just mo.

 

[Leibster]

Al Thompson,

It could be you're right--maybe it is simply a carryover from the old days. But there is widespread satisfaction with the method, mostly because it continues to prove itself effective.

Gary A,
Doubtless there are situations where this method wouldn't work--as there are with any method. I personally am not familiar with any, and I AM familiar with succes stories using this method, so I'm drawing conclusions based on my experience and training.

--Leibster

 

[Fel]

Yes.

Unsafe to carry my Colt SAA with a live round under the hammer.

 

[oogee]

Leibster "kol hakavod" ëì äëáåã

Well...
As an Israeli I did my 4 years in the army, my handgun training was CON-3 carry. CON-3 and the draw form you all know as the "Israeli draw" is now an instinct. When ever i draw a pistol my left hand automatically goes to pull the slide, its unintentional purly automatic reaction.

For those who have never seen how "the draw" is really done it's hard to understand how fast you can get a bullet out of a gun, it's basically click-click-boom -> first click is the slide clicking upon retraction the second click is the slide going back and boom...
how long does it take the slide to cycle??? :banghead:

They way I see it the "one in the pipe" comes from the era of revolvers, people could not adjust to semi autos without a chambered bullet.

there are special conditions that a weapon is not carried in CON-3, mostly things like: the Litani and Salouki area in southern lebanon, refugee camps in Gaza and Jenin. in places like these the primary in CON-0 (the pistol CON-3).

finally there is no problem to use a JERICHO (baby eagle) in CON-3, my personal pistol is a PCR (in the army I had a P228)

 

[Leibster]

Oogee,

Na'im M'od! Nice to have someone finally agree with me on this post for a change!! It's also nice to find someone else who knows without doubt that this is a workable system.

Judging by your birthday, you're recently out of the army. So I assume that they're still doing things the same way. (I'm a "pazamnik--I went in in Aug. '90).

--Leibster

 

[zorba]

If you are not comfortable carrying with a round in the chamber, change guns. I carry Glocks, Kahr's & SIG's with a round chambered all the time. A good holster that covers the trigger guard and keeping your finger off the trigger are mandatory. If I need to use my weapon, all I want to have to do is pull the trigger.

 

[DrDremel]

It is only a feasible method if you are empty handed and in a military type role. In a civilian role where it is not your primary focus you will not always have two hands to rack the slide. Also the Israelis are the only ones teaching this. And that is only the military. Military and civilian carry of a handgun are two very different roles. The handgun is a backup weapon in the military. The handgun in a civilian role is the primary weapon. Primary weapons are always carried loaded with the safety on.

 

[Leibster]

DrDremel,

I don't think you read my last response to you. In Israel, this is NOT a military-only carry style. This is the overwhelmingly predominant carry method among military, civilian and police, and it's been used effectively by all sectors.

--Leibster