ar-15/m-16 in cold climates

[Shadow 7D]

Well I shot my M-4 at negative 58 degrees F (-58F) because my "wonderful" commander decided to save money and use FT. Wainwrights ranges during the cheap time of the year ( the local units were in... southern Cali, Australia and the Sand Box)

There are tricks to keep it functioning, the main one is
you take the bolt out and clean it as soon as you get done, because if you don't, it don't work, cant say why, but it doesn't. Might be ice in the FP channel. Some went so far as to keep it in their pocket until needed.

Also, at that temp you get some noticeable delays in ignition, and we shant talk about trying to zero your rifle, as the POI changes drastically when the barrel warms....

Over all not a pleasant experience

 

[Billy Shears]

Guys, I hate to tell you this, but akforlife is making that up. He doesn't know any troops who are buying their own AKs because of reliability issues with the AR. Look at his username, and the fact that he's only got one post on this board. He registered just to post this comment. He's just a guy who has bought into every last little bit of hype on the AK, until it has become, for him, the end all and be all of rifles, completely indestructible, and will work under all conditions, every time, no matter what, ever. When the sun has expanded to a red giant, and the oceans have boiled away, the great Avtomat Kalashnikov will still be working flawlessly, despite being millions of years old and surviving the extinction of humanity.

The AK is, indeed, perhaps the most reliable, and most "idiot proof" assault rifle yet fielded, and will probably survive abuse and neglect better than any other design. But at the end of the day, it's still a mechanical device, with points of failure, and it will choke under the right circumstances. It's just that it's become hyped like the Japanese katana, which, despite its truly superb qualities, is so overhyped as the world's most awesome sword ever, that some regard it as practically a lightsaber, and there are urban legend-type stories about Japanese officers in WWII cutting through .50 caliber machine gun barrels with their katanas. There's no evidence that ever happened, and such stories always turn out to be just like urban legends -- you can never trace these stories back to any verifiable eyewitness, and you never have any actual physical evidence (e.g. "my dad fought on Iwo Jima, and he knew this guy from another company who saw this Japanese officer...). I guarantee this guy's stories about U.S. soldiers buying their own AKs because their issue rifles are unreliable have exactly this same sort of provenance: none.

 

[Shadow 7D]

No they got picked up for all the reasons you would pick up a gun and ammo, now some people operating away from supply might pick one up to say have something to shoot, but I doubt that an operator would be posting about that here.

Oh and they are fun to shoot, lets not forget that

 

[Opoche]

I would say it depends on what you mean by cold weather issues. In the the lower 48, I would say no problem. The Canadians apparently keep some Lee-Enfields on hand for when they send their rangers to places like Resolute, which is above the arctic circle, since it's loose tolerance prevent it from seizing up.
I know my uncle swears by his AR and he uses it in constantly during the winter in northern New Hampshire so I am going to lean towards not worrying about it as long proper maintenance is observed. I'll try it out this winter, we'll do a torture test in the cold. His AR vs. my swede mauser (which if anything has the tightest tolerances of any of mauser I've used).

 

[C-grunt]

One of the guys I shoot with at rifle qual every few months at work was a Navy SEAL (verified). He said that when they trained in Alsaka they would use the M14 because he was told that the Lube would freeze in the M4/16s. He said he had his M14 freeze shut before but was able to force it open with the bolt/charging handle.

 

[Tirod]

how close the tolerances are on the m-16 and how it needs to be maintained to work well in dirty environments.

ALL firearms have to be maintained in dirty environments. The M1 and M14 were also required to be cleaned daily in combat.

As for the weapon contracting in cold weather and having tolerances get tighter, sorry. It doesn't happen that way, a lot of people were apparently asleep in physical science class that day.

When an object gets colder, it contracts, but it cannot get get smaller. A tube is the best example - measure it at 72* - INSIDE AND OUTSIDE DIAMETERS - then at 0*. You will find the outside diameter will get a few ten thousandths smaller. You will also find the INSIDE diameter gets a few ten thousandths smaller. The whole object contracts, but overall, it can't shrink smaller than it is.

In a weapon, the measurable clearances - the space between moving parts - may actually increase, not get smaller. The real problem in cold conditions is moving back and forth between outside and inside. Urban combat in places like Stalingrad would subject a rifle to temperature swings of more than 75*, from below zero outside to a toasty fireside 80* inside.

Even your glasses will fog over in those conditions, condensate will appear anywhere ambient air can get, and the results will be ice within minutes of stepping back outside.

Artic Warfare teaches keep the weapons cold, leave them outside. Cold isn't a problem per se, it's what you do - leave them cold, don't even try to warm them up. A cold weapon doesn't have problems. It's in tune with the environment.

 

[Owen]

If I remember a brief correctly, the Canadian Rangers aren't like the US Army Rangers. Rather than being a highly trained light infantry unit, the Canadian Rangers are more like constables, and their regular issue is the Lee-Enfield. I'm sure a Canadian member can pop in and clarify.

Well, here's the wiki...http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_Rangers

 

[Zerodefect]

Someone want to put their AR15 in the freezer for petes sake allready! LOL. High tech idea, I know.

Measure you parts with a mic. They don't shrink up that much. My AR cycles dummy rounds smooth a silk after being frozen. I use ATF/STP/15w40 mixed to get a lube that sticks without freezing or getting too thick in the cold. Generous lube will melt any snow that gets inside.

We often get carried away in the winter. It's the only time we practice using the quickrelease on our single point slings to drop the whole sling, not just the weapon, for a goofball type pistol transition in our winter run and guns. Not worried about the optic or BUIS hitting the ground hard when theres 2 feet of snow on the range. Never had winter problems with the better AR's out there. (Colt, LMT, BCM)

Just don't ask me to try baking it.

 

[HorseSoldier]

The Canadians apparently keep some Lee-Enfields on hand for when they send their rangers to places like Resolute, which is above the arctic circle, since it's loose tolerance prevent it from seizing up.

Not exactly. Canadian Rangers are locals who live in remote areas of Canada (mostly First Nations people -- Inuit, whatever). They don't really get any military training to speak of, just some quick shake and bake courses on basic military topics. They also don't get paid for their service except when called up for active duty . . . but they do get a free Lee-Enfields and a yearly allowance of 200 rounds of so of .303. Where most of them live, they're still partially subsistence hunters/fishers, and ammo costs an arm and a leg, so that's nothing to laugh at.

I haven't run an AR or M4 as cold as Shadow7D, but haven't had any issues at -20. I've heard you can get PMags cold enough that they have breakage issues, but whatever temp is the magic number on that its' colder than -20.

 

[Float Pilot]

The coldest I have used military issued weapons was negative 56 degree F. (Fort Greely AK.)
M16s worked with all the lube removed, but would jam up when removed from a semi-warm M-113 A-Cav. It would eventually work again when all the metals became the same temp. Break Free becomes thick and glue-like at those temps.
Arcttic brake fluid or kerosene works well as cold temp lube.

The coldest I have used personally owned weapons was Neg 76 F at Fort Yukon Ak,
(Winter of 82-83).
My S&W m-25-5 revolver jammed rock solid when I pulled it out from under my parka. (trying to shoot a rabid dog.)
A tiny bit of petroleum based lube acted like a weld. I later cleaned it with acetone and then lubed it with silver dry graphite.
My 1911A1 did not like to fire more than a couple shots at that temp. My personal AR-15 patrol car gun did not work at 76 below, but my Finnish Valmet M-76 FS did when I dry lubed it.


Cold Weather Firearms Lube Test with a Stag AR chambered in 6.8mm SPC.
Negative 20 F.

Tetra Gun Lube.........................................Very slippery but semi thick
GS-96.......................................................Works well, semi dries.
Penn Synthetic Reel Oil P/N 92340 Very Fluid, Extremely slippery
Marvel Mystery Oil Very fluid, Very slippery
3 in 1 Oil Fairly fluid, somewhat slippery
LPS-2 Fairly Fluid, somewhat slippery
Klean-Bore Formula 3 Some separation, fairly fluid, somewhat slippery
Tri-Flow Separated, does not adhere or film on metal
Break-Free Separated, somewhat tacky and semi syrup like
Mil-Tech Thick, somewhat tacky, syrup like
Outers Gun Oil Very thick syrup. Tacky
Mil spec MIL4-46000c Lube Oil Separated, some was in thick jell state.
Rem Oil Thick jell, tacky
Boe Shield T-9 Thick Jell, tacky
Corrosion X HD Thick jell, tacky
Ballistol very thick jell. Separation
Exxon Elite 20-50 Syn Av Oil Very Thick, glue like
AeroShell 15-50 Semi Syn Av Oil Very thick, glue like