AR15 optics-Do we really need "tactical"?

[jame]

As a new owner of an AR, I keep reading about the various options available for optics. I understand what my need is for my desired application. I would like to put a magnified optic on mine, as the intended use is as a farm/ranch rifle, used to dispatch various predators, sick, or wounded animals. I do live a little on the secluded side, and perimeter defense is a distant second.
I'm wondering why so many AR fans suggest an ACOG, Eotech, or Leupold Tactical sight rather than, say, a Burris Compact. Is recoil or the dynamics of the semiauto a factor to be considered? I do appreciate good glass on a hunting rifle, but I'm having a hard time justifying spending two, three or even four times as much for something "tactical" as opposed to a Plain Jane Weaver K-4.
What am I missing?

 

[Onslaught]

First, let me say that I can't afford the ACOG, so I have a Burris on my AR... BUT if you ever looked through one, you'd know what the hub-bub was all about.

The brightness and clarity are unlike anything I have EVER seen, and the range finding 100 - 600 yard reticle is perfect. Just get the model made for your bbl length and mounting position and you're "on" with just a 100 yard zero.

The no-battery illuminated reticle is a bonus too. Even for you dispatching predators at night, you'd really appreciate it.

 

[Gewehr98]

You're missing the "high-speed, low-drag" aspect of AR-15 ownership.

This guy's well on his way, with vertical foregrip, flashlight, and battery powered optics, while using a telescoping stock on a lightweight rifle. The funny thing is that these guns, with their various Lasers, Phasers, and Wind Speed Indicators, end up being heavier than the 20" AR-15/M16's they were designed to replace in an effort to lighten the combat load.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=78862

It gets better.

Bling-bling has it's day, too:

It's kinda like big wings, large fart-can tailpipes, air dams, kanji stickers, and blue levitation lights on front-drive import cars. They may not go any faster, or handle any better, but they sure look cool.

It makes one wonder if anybody is capable of firing an AR-15/M16 with iron sights anymore.

 

[jame]

I think I know what you mean. I can shoot with irons just fine, generally speaking. My AR even has the A1 rear sights (oh, the horror!) that I'm certain would do just fine on thier own. I'm good to 200 yards with them by themselves. I just have a couple of middle aged eyballs that need a little help once in a while at the longer ranges.

 

[Onslaught]

Gee Gewehr98,

I know how you feel about AR's and gadgets, and I don't neccessarily disagree with you all the time, but the guy was only asking about optics... Basically, are the typical high-dollar combat optics so frequently suggested as the "only thing" for an AR15 really "all that".

I hadn't seen that first pic you posted... and funny thing is, that one's not photoshopped! thanks for sharing. But still, two optics and two weapons mounted lights? I'm gonna guess (or at least hope) that this pic was taken by a guy who was showing off everything he had for giggles rather than what he uses daily on his rifle. There's nothing on there that, by itself, could not be a useful addition to an AR15 in certain circumstances, but there's definitely enough on there for two decked out M4's.

I was multitasking on my first response (phone call ) so I guess I coulda said more.

Specifically regarding the ACOG, I think they are an awesome, realistic, functional addition to an AR. They are quality stuff, with useful features specific to the AR15, light in weight, and just "fit" well. I just wish they were $600 instead of $1200.

As for the Aimpoint, EOTech, etc... While they too are tops in the survivability department, and what our men and women in tan are using to share freedom abroad, they are more than I PERSONALLY need to punch paper, shoot armadillos, etc. I use a $150 HAKKO BED24 that I'm quite happy with, and doubt I could do anything with a $400 Aimpoint and Mount that I can't do now (except maybe drop my rifle onto the pavement and have the optic survive).

Though I admit sometimes falling for the "cool factor" when I see something, I always ask myself "Do I actually have a use for that $500 accessory , and if so, what will it do for me that a $100 accessory can't".

That usually does it.... Usually.

 

[BerettaNut92]

Do we really need "tactical"?

Yes. Chicks dig it

 

[Nightcrawler]

No Skunky...no they don't.

 

[Onslaught]

Yes. Chicks dig it

Not when you're MARRIED to them they don't

 

[Bridger]

Hmm, Gewehr98, in the link to the other guy's photos, I don't see much of the "bling bling" in effect. The rifle on the right is actually just like the idea behind some of the Marine Corps m16a4 rifles, pretty simple I think, even if it isn't iron sights.

One on the left doesn't have too much crap on it either, I can see a purpose for it all, though I think the stock is too expensive

Of course, the rest is just jokes heh. I find more amusing the guys with the SIR rail system all over the front yet nothing on it.

 

[dave3006]

The AR-15 is the Barbie doll of guns. You can dress it up in so many cute outfits. The only real absolute reason to have a red dot sight is for low light shooting. Iron sights will do the rest.

My list of unnecessary stuff to dress up your AR-15

Mag pull gizmos
Fancy side mount sling attachments
Gadgets that hook one mag to the other
Vertical grip thingies
$350 Surefire integrated lights (a $30 light and duct tape will work)
Collapsible stocks
Extended charger handles
Hogue grips
Weapons mounted mag carriers

The list could go on. But, what would the bored gun owner do with all his extra money?

 

[BusMaster007]

I picked up a magazine to check out the AR story in it.

Here I was all embarrassed about not having a 'tactical' scope or optic to put on my new AR15.com/ArmaLite 2003 Special Edition Black Rifle...all I had that would really fit and work right was my trusty, dependable, Made in America REDFIELD WIDEFIELD LO-PRO 3-9 scope.

The 'other' optical scope for the AR in the article was - the same scope as above!!!
All of a sudden, I didn't feel like it was the wrong or last choice for my rifle.


If any of you know which magazine or article I'm talking about, post it for others, please. I don't remember which gunrag it was.

 

[Onslaught]

The only real absolute reason to have a red dot sight is for low light shooting. Iron sights will do the rest.

444 will come along eventually to respond to that in a much more appropriate and properly thought out and executed fashion... Me and my ADHD can only say this...

HUH?

Nothing works for everyone, and everybody's different, but any time a person writes off ANYTHING as being of ABSOLUTELY no use to ANYONE whatsoever, it is almost ALWAYS a statement that was not thought out clearly enough.

For starters, red dots are faster on target than iron sights, day or night, period. They allow you to keep both eyes open, focused on the target, with a more "heads up" view of your surroundings. A BIG bonus for those engaged in actual combat. On to some of the other stuff...

My list of unnecessary stuff to dress up your AR-15

Mag pull gizmos

Don't own them, don't use them, but I have handled one enough to realize that, in a real combat or LEO situation, they'd be a lot harder to drop if you were sweaty, wet, jumpy, etc...

Fancy side mount sling attachments

Side mounts are EXTREMELY useful on the AR, or any other pistol-gripped rifle. The mag and pistol grip aren't poking you in the back, and you've got the very functional option of a 3-position sling which gives the user several carry options and allows the rifle to be brought to the ready without removing from the shoulder. I've also seen this rig demonstrated very effectively for transitioning to your sidearm.

Gadgets that hook one mag to the other

While I don't own one, want one, or have any use for one, I've seen them being used quite effectively in 3-gun matches, and in videos of combat simulations with actual soldiers using MILES gear. It's faster than going for your web gear.

Vertical grip thingies

Eh... I could take 'em or leave 'em. Some swear by them, some swear at them. But they aren't hurting me either way, and if somebody gets use from them, then good!

$350 Surefire integrated lights (a $30 light and duct tape will work)

That's just silly. Granted a $30 light and a $20 mount would work for some (like me... I'm cheap) , but not for all. By actually using proper mounts for the flashlight, it's going to point straight ahead, in the same direction you're aiming at... all the time... Duct tape...

Collapsible stocks

This one I do actually have, and it's the most useful accessory on my personal AR. My son can shoot it, my wife can shoot it, I can shoot it, and we all use a different LOP, and we're all just as comfortable as can be with our personalized stock length. Body armour would be a real no-brainer as to an application that a shorter stock length would help.

Extended charger handles

No opinion there, but I'm sure they come in handy for big-ole scopes.

Hogue grips

Oh no, you're not a purist who thinks that EVERYONE should conform and be happy with that BROOM HANDLE known as the A2 pistol grip are you? I use the ErgoGrip myself, because it's MORE COMFORTABLE by leaps and bounds than the A2 POS that I took off. If that's an unneccessary piece that's just for looks, I suppose aftermarket stocks for bolt-actions, Pachmayr and Hogue grips for revolvers and semi-autos, as well as adjustable seats in cars are a silly bauble too.

Weapons mounted mag carriers

Well, another item I don't use or want, but I can quickly envision the "reload attached to the weapon" for a police officer who keeps an AR15 in his trunk. Bank robbery in progress right across the street from the Sonic he's eating lunch at. Perps are running to the car, firing. He pops the trunk, grabs the rifle, and has an extra 30 rounds right there on the AR without having to strap on any extra vest, pouch, etc... and also doesn't have to carry that loaded AR mag day in, day out, all day long when he may NEVER even have to take that rifle out of his vehicle.

I ain't trying to sound argumentative, and I've seen some stuff that I personally thought was just plain silly on an AR, but SOMEBODY SOMEWHERE has probably put that exact item to GOOD USE at some point.

There's more to life than just vanilla!

 

[Omaha-BeenGlockin]

Have 3 AR's------one is slowly on its way to being bling bling pimp-o-licious.
16in Bushy H-bar----ACE stock---ARMS rail---cheap Tasco red-dot(for now)---Bushy Triple mount---Surefire mounted on that.


AR #2---is a clean build---A2 upper---iron sights only---14.5 barrel with Izzy brake----and soon to be ACE skeleton stock----nice but nothin special.

AR #3---Bushy Varminter----Burris 4.5x14x42AO scope----only thing added to that one.

Building a 20in upper soon----will be a pre-ban flat top-----to be completed in Sept----will go between a carry handle sight and a QR scope mount.

Fun thing about AR's is you can do just about any config you please.

 

[AZRickD]

Gewehr98, I love your common-sense approach to self defense.

However, you've made one rather large error in the set up. When you turn on that main spot light on the starboard side, the magnetic field generated by the high current drain will cause the compass on the stock to align away from magnetic north.

Also, do you get any glare from the back side of the tactical hood ornament? You might want to spritz some olive drab Bowflage there.

Rick

 

[BillL223]

My application is 3-Gun where the targets can range from 1 yd to 300+ yds. My eyes require magnification to shoot the longer distances. Currently I am using a Leupold VX2 1-4 x 20. This works fine at 1 power for the close targets and the 4 power is enough for the 300 yd targets. I had a Vari-X III on earlier in 1.75 - 6 which made a very nice all around combo on the AR but it was harder to shoot the close stuff fast.

 

[MrAcheson]

The funny thing is that these guns, with their various Lasers, Phasers, and Wind Speed Indicators, end up being heavier than the 20" AR-15/M16's they were designed to replace in an effort to lighten the combat load.

The combat load never gets lighter. A lighter gun just makes room for other stuff to carry. Do you know what the combat load of a Roman infantryman was? Last time I checked it was about what guys are carrying into combat now. His was sword, shield, javelin, and plate armor. Ours is guns, ammo, and body armor.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

I'm wondering why so many AR fans suggest an ACOG, Eotech, or Leupold Tactical sight rather than, say, a Burris Compact. Is recoil or the dynamics of the semiauto a factor to be considered?

Yes, this kind of bugs me too. I own an ACOG and I love it; but I've often seen them recommended where they weren't the best sight for the job. the first three sights you mentioned are specialized sights and each has its own usage. Whether or not a Burris Compact would work just as well is going to depend a lot on what your intended usage is.

What am I missing?

Well, the first thing on most of those is an illuminated reticle. The illuminated reticle allows for better contrast with the target and is particularly useful in two-eyes open shooting. Mainly it aids with low-light shooting and fast acquisition of the target.

A second thing is the degree of ruggedness. The EOtech, ACOG and Leupold CQT are rugged to a degree that a Burris Compact isn't. They are all military sights. That doesn't mean the Burris isn't tough or that it won't serve perfectly well for your needs. It just means those sights are designed to a higher standard. You probably won't need to jump from several thousand feet with your optic and then swim it to its destination. So with all of those sights, you are paying a lot to get a degree of toughness that is probably not required for most range or LE use.

I could pretty much go on all day about what each of those sights can do that a Burris Compact can't. They have their niche. The thing is, the Burris will still do a lot of things that these sights do - and for most of us, that is all we need.

In optics it is usually a case of you get what you pay for, and I think this is true here. You do get more from the more expensive scopes you mentioned. The real question is whether you really NEED what you are getting. If a Burris is getting the job done with no complaints, then probably not.

The funny thing is that these guns, with their various Lasers, Phasers, and Wind Speed Indicators, end up being heavier than the 20" AR-15/M16's they were designed to replace in an effort to lighten the combat load.

Those things have utility or they wouldn't be on the rifle. They might not have utility for YOU; but you don't really know what the person you are citing is using it for, do you?

Just as an example, the rifle on the right is basically a copy of the M16A4 fielded by the Marines in Iraq. Here is a report from the Marine Corps Warfighting Labs where they discussed the advantages of that exact setup in testing:

http://www.mcwl.usmc.mil/divisions/expops/aar/guam_final.pdf

Take a look at its conclusions - particularly just the range exercises. They show a significant advantage to the optic, even when experience Marine riflemen who have just had a week of rifle training are behind the trigger.

 

[30Cal]

I'm wondering why so many AR fans suggest an ACOG, Eotech, or Leupold Tactical sight rather than, say, a Burris Compact. Is recoil or the dynamics of the semiauto a factor to be considered?

The AR is about as benign a firearm as your going to find. Recoil is negligible . As long as the package isn't overly heavy, fits where it needs to go and the eye relief is right, it should work.

For low light situations (ie dusk or night), you'll want a big objective lens and low magnification such that:

objective in mm divided by magnification power is greater than 7

If you have some special use for the rifle, then you might want to put more money into the optics.
Ty

 

[dbshabo]

I know I have a box full of stuff that I bought for my first AR that I'll attempt to sell when my gun club has it's next flea market. It's called capitalism. Keeps the economy going. It certainly makes the firearms industry larger than it otherwise would be without those high end businesses. That may be a good thing when someone figures what the firearms industry adds to the annual GDP. Anyone out there know?

All that bling-bling stuff looks cool but isn't worth a dime if you don't train with it. Let's face it most of us are never gonna fire these weapons in aggression. Hopefully not anyway. If we ever have to most of us are gonna die cause we don't train for it, me included I'm sorry to say. I say if you want it and can afford it, get it, use it, enjoy it.

Shabo

 

[Gewehr98]

Just so people don't think I spew pure vitriol...

Here's my prairie dog rig. It's a Leupold 3.5-10X scope on an AR-15. While it does wonders decimating a prairie dog town's population, it works pretty good on paper targets, too. But it fails miserably at the Tacticalicious test, I'm afraid.



Jame, your idea of a Weaver K4 is a good one, I understand your application and you should have no problem with varmints using that scoped AR.

 

[Poodleshooter]

I'm wondering why so many AR fans suggest an ACOG, Eotech, or Leupold Tactical sight rather than, say, a Burris Compact.

I'm going to guess out of my own experience that it's because most AR owners are suburban dwellers who want a CQB rifle with a fast acquiring day/night 1x sight.
There's plenty of regular glass on AR's, but it's mostly on A3 varmint rigs or older AR's that used short compact scopes.
I've got a 6-24x40 that I sometimes mount on my A2 (because I haven't ponied up the cash for an A3 floated barreled upper yet)

 

[444]

Thankfully, you can buy whatever you feel you need for your rifle. If you think a Burris compact scope is what you need, go for it. It sounds like it might be just the ticket.

Something to consider about anything you want to name: it might not be of any use to you. That doesn't mean it is a gimmick, useless, wanta be, or anything else. You are not the do all and end all of the firearms market. Your needs don't represent the needs of everyone in the world. I know this may be hard to believe but there might even be some stuff out there that you knock, but have never tried that if you did try might be a revalation to you. Give this a little thought: there are people in the world who use similar rifles and carbines for real. Their lives and their buddies lives along with their mission depend on these rifles and carbines. The nature of their job requires them to carry all this stuff for mile after mile. Yet, they seem to think the extra weight is worth it. I somehow find it hard to believe that they have a lot to learn about their job from us internet jockeys who complain about weight but seldom carry the weapon any further than from the house to the car.

Our soldiers carry a lot of add ons to their carbines. Night vision gear, infared lasers, optics etc. When they get done, their carbine might very well weigh just as much as a 20" rifle. So what ? I think you missed the point, with the 20" rifle you don't have optics, night vision gear, infared lasers etc. I don't get what one has to do with the other ? I have a Remington 700 rifle with a scope on it. It weighs more than it did without the scope, only before it didn't have a scope.

 

[Texas Gunman]

Well fellas, my new DPMS detachable rear sight came in today, seeing how my reflex sight is too long, I had to make a few mods, chopped off the 2nd bolt that holds the rear sight on. That being done, everything fits properly and it also co witness perfectly. []

TG

 

[jame]

To those that responded to my original post, I thank you. I won't feel like a sinner if I bolt on a (quality, always!) standard hunting scope, and I do appreciate the well thought input. Since mine is an AK Shorty, a compact variable or low powered fixed sight makes sense to me, and you have helped me to justify my reasoning.

I have no doubt that all of the other bolt on toys make sense for some applications. But I'm not a soldier, and I have no intention of pretending to be one. My Dad was a Marine in Korea. There's no way I could or would try to impress him with my tactical prowess, and I have no intention of even going there. Besides, I'm saving for a CMP Garand, and I have little use for the bling bling.

I'm an acreage owner and part-time farmer. Hell, I don't even go to a shooting range. I just want the coyotes to quit eating my pheasants and barn cats, and I think that a little long distance lead poisoning is part of the answer.

I think a Compact Leupold or Burris is soon to become reality.

 

[444]

"I have no doubt that all of the other bolt on toys make sense for some applications. But I'm not a soldier, and I have no intention of pretending to be one."

A lot of this stuff has a very practical use, even if you don't want to play soldier. For example, I have an AR15 with a rail system, Aimpoint optic, and a Surefire weaponlight. To some, this makes me a wanna be. But to me, it makes a great coyote rifle. Having a sight that I can use at night and unlimited periferal vision along with a very bright light works wonders at night vs. coyotes. And, it has proven so in actual use. The rail system serves the same purpose for me that it does for our soldiers. When I am not using it at night, I throw a single lever and remove the light. If I want to use iron sights or a scope, I throw another lever and remove the Aimpoint. Or, if I am spotlighting coyotes from the truck I can remove the other stuff and add my ACOG which gives me 4x and an illuninated reticle.
This stuff is the same stuff used by our military, but me using it for my own purposes doesn't make me something I am not. I am simply taking advantage of a practical system developed by and for the military in a civilian role. I think they have a TV show about that: Tactical to Practical.