AR15 optics-Do we really need "tactical"?

[Gewehr98]

TechBrute, can you honestly say...

That the majority of the Rooney Guns we see posted here on THR were put together by folks of the same capability as Pat Rogers? And I'll wager Pat was quite adept at using an iron-sighted, "slick" AR-15 well before the battery-operated accessories got tacked on to any of his own guns. He was a rifleman, first and foremost, the widgets simply opened up his operational envelope.

People assemble Rooney Guns because they look cool, somewhat like the M4's the Marines are toting around Fallujah on CNN right now. Were they to let me manage the money they would otherwise have spent on the widgets, I would've spent it on a couple thousand rounds of ammo, then sent them to the aforementioned rifle schools. If that was too expensive, then I'd send them to spend quality time with Steve Smith, or Correia. Not that either Steve or Correia visibly ooze "tactical" out of their pores, but they both know how to make a plain-vanilla, iron-sighted AR-15 perform. Then one can add the lasers, phasers, and wind-speed indicators. Otherwise, it's back to the rear-winged, large tailpipe Honda Civic analogy.

And this is coming from a guy who got in trouble with a Security Forces commander shortly after 9/11, because of a discussion I had with respect to perimeter defense and security checkpoint penetrations. Not too tactical, but it made them rethink their position afterwards. But that's another story...

 

[fix]

somewhat like the M4's the Marines are toting around Fallujah on CNN right now

Well most of the Marines you are referring to are not issued M4s but that's neither here nor there. What you see on their M16A4s for the most part is a light, an optic, and a vertical foregrip. The light and the optic should be self explanatory. The vertical foregrip is a matter of personal preference, but most of the folks I know who regularly are faced with the unpleasant task of room clearing prefer the foregrip as an aid to quick shooting. Extend your support hand out in front of you and it will naturally fall into the right position to grasp the foregrip rather than to cradle the handguards, unless you are a freak. It seems pretty simple to me, and I suspect that if it had been adopted by civilians first rather than the military, it would not be considered "tactical" and many of you would not have such disdain for the thing. I spent years grabbing the front of the magwell, often inadvertantly blocking the ejection port and burning my fingers. I wish I had the option then, and I'm glad I do now. You can look down on me for using a simple weapon enhancement if you want, but if you were in charge I'd still be burning my hands and likely using weapons handling techniques better suited to a highpower match than a gunfight.

 

[jame]

Good Lord, fellas! I was just asking about the right scope for my application only. I'm sure there are thousands of different applications out there. Hell, I have a buddy that shoots at Camp Perry. His rifle tickes in at 14 or 15 pounds! (Or some extreme number, I don't just remember right now. )

If you like to taget shoot, hunt, use fore defensive applications, home or professional, or for that matter, you just like to play "dress up", more power (and cash!) to you.

I just didn't know if any of the excellent hunting scopes available would be OK on my AR. It appears that a quality scope would be just fine.

You know, for hunting, a good bipod might be OK, too............

Aw, what the hell. Forget I even mentioned the bipod!

 

[fix]

jame, you're right. To answer your question, people recommend the more advanced optics for one of two reasons.

1) They hear AR and start thinking combat combat combat, which incidentally is one of the primary considerations for those who use it for defense.

2) They understand that the more advanced optics have certain advantages that are not only applicable to the battlefield. The ACOG is an outstanding general purpose optic that can fill nearly any role that you could reasonably expect a 5.56mm weapon to fill.

Nothing wrong with putting a more traditional scope on there. Just don't dismiss the others just because some folks have this strange "anti-tactical" bigotry thing going.

This thread reminds me of the stories about guys being looked down upon by the $5000 over under crowd for daring to bring a pump shotgun to a trap shoot.

 

[Gewehr98]

Fix, you being a Marine and me being Air Force...

I seriously doubt that neither one of us actually "looks down" upon useful additions to weapons systems. I, for one, would hate to fly in the Sea of Japan without TCAS or color weather radar onboard. It makes the mission just that much more effective.

But I'll stand firmly in the camp of El Tejon, Tamara, Jeff White, and a host of others here on THR and say that battery-powered doodads don't mean a darned thing unless one learns to use the basic weapons system first. Then one can bolt stuff on for that "tactical edge". To be fair, it's a free country, and nothing's stopping the Armchair Tactical Operators from wanting and assembling a Rooney Gun, just like nobody's stopping kids from bolting wings and undercarriage lights to a Honda Civic, the analogy is way too similar. And with that, I'm done with this topic.

Jame, I'm sorry for the thread veer. Again, your idea of a scoped AR-15 for varmint control has plenty of merit. Might I suggest a Nosler Ballistic Tip, or Hornady A-Max load for coyote control in .223?

 

[TechBrute]

TechBrute, can you honestly say...
That the majority of the Rooney Guns we see posted here on THR were put together by folks of the same capability as Pat Rogers? And I'll wager Pat was quite adept at using an iron-sighted, "slick" AR-15 well before the battery-operated accessories got tacked on to any of his own guns. He was a rifleman, first and foremost, the widgets simply opened up his operational envelope.

That's really neither here nor there. The point is that his Aimpoint improves his ability to do his job, not that he can't do his job without it. That same Aimpoint can help any person do their job. Continuing to use Pat as an example, given the choice, he chooses to use the Aimpoint. Why would he not?

 

[artherd]

Why the heck should I be limited by my equipment?

I'm going to play devil's advocate here for a moment.

I get all antsy when people tell me I don't 'need' an accurate rifle, because I'm not a 1,000yard god.

I damn well DO need an accurate rifle! Even if I can only shoot 3MOA, a gun that shoots 1MOA will make my groups 4". A gun that shoots 3MOA will give me 6" spread at 100yards. Or rather, I'll start missing people at 200-300yds.


If any of the doodats I use add to my ability to make a quick, on-target hit, what the heck exactly is your problem with them?

 

[dave3006]

Just out of curiousity, how many people has Pat Rogers killed? Since he is the example of perfection, he must have been in 100s of gunfights, right?

 

[TechBrute]

Why don't you go ask him if it's a concern to you.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

Just out of curiousity, how many people has Pat Rogers killed? Since he is the example of perfection, he must have been in 100s of gunfights, right?

Only one that I've heard him talk about (a VC who he shot multiple times with an M14); but given that he served as a Force Recon Marine in Vietnam, served another 20yrs as a member of NYPD and then went on to a third career in government service with an alphabet agency before settling into his role as firearms instructor for places like Gunsite and the new MARDET 1 detachment at SOCCOM, I think I'd listen to what he has to say even if the number was zero.

Having said that, this thread isn't about Pat Rogers or rooney guns, though I've certainly played my part in hijacking it

Let's get back to the initial question and take the other debates to a new thread if you wish to continue them.

 

[lycanthrope]

Leave out "Tactical" for a moment.

Wanna increase the utility of any good weapon?

Good ammo.
Good trigger.
Good sighting system.

Forget name, price and color scheme. Fit the tool to the user. Now, that is tactical!

Now...go forth and multiply.

 

[444]

"These guns, and their owners, are getting turned away after showing up at rifle courses like Thunder Ranch and Gunsite, where the guns earned the name of "Rooney Guns" from none other than Hizzonner Jeff Cooper - somebody I'd be hard-pressed to argue tactics with."

Before I attended my first carbine class at Gunsite I discussed via E-Mail with Pat Rogers what equipment I should buy so that I could get the most out of the experience. He advised me to get an Aimpoint ML2 optic, a single point sling from The Wilderness, and a Surefire weapon light. He also told me that he likes the KAC RAS II. So, that is what I bought. Within the first day or two of the course I overheard a couple students talking among themselves saying, "there is no way we can keep up with those guys who are using optics". After the night shoot, everyone realized that optics were the way to go. Especially when they realized that they could not see their iron sights at all in the dark while we were scoring hits at will at 100 yards on steel. I was introduced to Mag Puls at Gunsite by the rangemaster for my basic carbine class (Bill Murphy). After using them, I wouldn't go back. He also used a redi-mag and was a big advocate of keeping a spare mag on the gun. He told us that he keeps a spare mag on his patrol carbine at all times which is something they learned from the DEA. The logic has already been stated, there are times you grab your carbine and do not have your other gear with you. In that case you have two magazines with the carbine.
I certainly don't know the details of Pat Rogers life (I don't even know him although I did spend a week with him while he served as rangemaster for my Gunsite Advanced Carbine class) but I do know that he has been there and done that. He also works as a civilian contractor on a regular basis with people that are currently being there and doing that. He also sees hundreds if not thousands of carbines in action in his work as an instructor for military, civilians, and law enforcement officers. He knows what works from experience.
"Just out of curiousity, how many people has Pat Rogers killed? Since he is the example of perfection, he must have been in 100s of gunfights, right?"
Again, I wouldn't presume to speak for the man, but I would say that number isn't far off between his work as a police officer and his time in the military.
Jeff Cooper does not like the M16 family of weapons. I am not sure he likes anything that was invented in the last 60 years. I asked Jeff Cooper in person last summer what he thought of our current military weapons and he said, "Well, they are not too good, but they seem to be doing OK with them".

"But I'll stand firmly in the camp of El Tejon, Tamara, Jeff White, and a host of others here on THR and say that battery-powered doodads don't mean a darned thing unless one learns to use the basic weapons system first."
The problem with this argument is that it presumes that we haven't learned to use the basic weapons system first. I wouldn't go so far as to presume that. I have a couple AR15s with all the bells and whistles on them. Before I put any of that stuff on my carbines I did a lot of research on the subject including talking to people like the instructors at Gunsite. Everything I have on my AR15s has proven it's worth to me in my own practice and at a number of carbine classes including Basic and Advanced Carbine at Gunsite. On the other hand I also own a number of AR15s with iron sights and have owned at least one AR15 with iron sights since the early 80s. I spent my entire military enlistment using an M16A1 with iron sights. I regular shoot my AR15s with iron sights now. If I had to grab one AR15 right now for any reason (hunting, personal defense, competition, military service, plinking................) it wouldn't be one of the one's I own with only iron sights.

 

[natedog]

Just because you can hang optics and accessories off of a gun doesn't make it a "Barbie Doll". From researching your posts, Dave, I've found that you have a Mini-14 with an Ultimak rail and an Aimpoint red dot scope. So, let me get this straight. You can put optics, rails, and "doo-dads" on an AR-15, and it becomes a "barbie doll in so many cute outfits" but the same rails and optics on a Mini-14 is totally practical? .

 

[dave3006]

Natedog, if you read my first post on this subject you would see that I acknowledged the usefulness of red dot sights for night use. And, if you looked at my Mini close enough you would notice it didn't have any other worthless gimick like vertical grips, lasers, ect...

Nice try.

 

[444]