ATF shuts historic gunshop in Idaho.

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http://www.magicvalley.com/articles/2007/03/14/news/top_story/108108.txt

Red's loses its gun license

By Cassidy Friedman
Times-News writer

TWIN FALLS - Red's Trading Post, one of Idaho's oldest gun shops, can trade no longer.

The U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives has revoked the business's license to buy, trade or obtain guns after an ATF audit found Red's employees sold guns improperly numerous times between 1999 and 2004.

Red's manager, Ryan Horsley, admits when the business sold guns it sometimes left blank required parts of a gun purchase form, omitted a background check on a special order, failed to log multiple handgun sales to the same customer in five working days, did not keep track of guns returned to manufacturers, threw away denied applications dealers are required to keep for 20 years and failed to post a gun safety sign and pamphlets.

The ATF revoked Red's license March 5, shutting down 90 percent of the income that has sustained the store through three generations of Horsleys.

"They are taking very minor things and blowing them out of proportion," said Terry Horsley, the shop's owner and Ryan's mother.

The shop, at 215 Shoshone St. South, can sell the 1,000 guns remaining in its inventory, and can continue selling gun accessories and ammunition.

But accessories account for only 10 percent of its revenue.

"I'm just sitting here going, 'What am I going to do?,'" Ryan Horsley said.

The five-year audit found violations over a period in which 10,000 guns were sold, Horsley said.

"Mistakes happen. Stuff happens," Horsley said. "I think it's unreal expecting to have 100 percent non errors."

The bad news, which comes on the heels of record profits, could now close the store, Terry Horsley said.

Red's has paid $20,000 in legal fees protesting the ATF's decision. On Feb. 23, Red's legal team filed a petition in federal court in Boise.

The judicial review will consider, among other things, whether Red's "willfully" violated the law.

"'Not willful' is one of their petitions," said Deborah Ferguson, assistant U.S. attorney, representing the ATF's industry operations. "'Willful has been defined by case law. I would expect the court to look at that legal authority."

Case law defines "willful," an essential component of the allegations, as "they knew of the regulations and did not abide by them," Ferguson said.

Ryan Horsley said Red's was found responsible of several violations in an earlier audit.

But he said the infractions are petty and do not justify a revoked license.

"There's no missing guns," he said. "There are errors but everyone has errors."

Walt Sinclair, a Boise co-counsel for Red's, said the errors were clerical, not intentional.

He said it's not the first time the ATF has revoked the license of a Twin Falls gun dealership.

"Blue Lakes Sporting Goods lost its license," Sinclair said. "They had been there forever. It was a family business. It was a real success story, but this type of petty, technical noncompliance caused them to end up going out of business."

The ATF has 60 days from Feb. 23 to respond Red's petition.

The ATF Seattle Field Office spokeswoman declined to comment on Red's case until after judicial review.

"If the individuals reapply, the facts from the revocation would be considered for any future licenses," said spokeswoman Julianne Marshall. "Industry Operations will consider their application. However, they have an interest for public safety. This license was revoked for a reason."

A judge may still overturn ATF's decision.

Cassidy Friedman covers crime and courts for the Times-News. He can be reached at (208)735-3241 or by e-mail at [email protected].

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Related story:
http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewNation.asp?Page=\Nation\archive\200307\NAT20030702c.html

Hundreds of Guns Missing From Federal Police Agencies
By Jeff Johnson
CNSNews.com Congressional Bureau Chief
July 02, 2003

Capitol Hill (CNSNews.com) - A congressional report released Monday found that federal law enforcement agencies are still unable to account for 824 of 1,012 lost or stolen firearms issued to their officers a full year after the weapons were determined to be missing. The Republican chairman and ranking Democrat on the House Judiciary Committee both called the revelation "inexcusable."

"Neither the public nor I will condone having over 800 firearms missing from federal agencies," said House Judiciary Committee Chairman James Sensenbrenner (R-Wis.) after the General Accounting Office (GAO) released its updated report Monday.

"Most disturbing, though, is that many of these firearms were not timely reported missing by the law enforcement officers themselves," Sensenbrenner continued. "That is inexcusable."

Tom Schatz, president of Citizens Against Government Waste, said the revelations are "certainly a disturbing development.

"It is like many other activities that the federal government carries on, poor inventory control and lack of attention to detail," he said.

"One of the most important things that the federal government does is to protect the American people," Schatz continued, "and particularly now, when we have terrorist alerts and all kinds of new threats to the people of this country, federal agencies should be extra careful and extra protective of their weapons."

FBI took more than four years to report missing guns

The GAO found that - of 1,012 firearms either lost by or stolen from federal law enforcement officers and agencies between September 1998 and July 2002 - only 188 have been accounted for since the GAO first reported the firearms missing one year ago this month.

Additionally, not all agencies always report, or report in a timely manner, missing firearms internally or to the National Crime Information Center, according to the GAO.

"The average time taken to report a firearm lost ranged from the same day by the Bureau of Prisons (BOP) to 4.3 years by the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI)," the report stated.

Some of the agencies at the Department of Justice (DOJ) "did not always investigate weapons that were lost or stolen from their agency as required by their policies and procedures.

"For instance, the GAO documented that the Justice Department Inspector General could not find evidence that the FBI investigated 141 of 212 missing firearms," the GAO reported. "The IG (Inspector General) has determined that 29 of 74 missing firearms were not investigated by the Immigration and Naturalization Service (INS)."

"The GAO's findings are deeply troubling," said Rep. John Conyers (D-Mich.), the ranking Democrat on the House Judiciary Committee. "The failure of the various law enforcement agencies to report and investigate lost and stolen firearms, coupled with their inability to recover these weapons after it has been determined that they were missing, places the lives of countless Americans at risk."

The congressional investigation began after a March 2001 audit by the DOJ-IG found that the INS could not account for more than 500 firearms issued to that agency. In July 2001, the nation's premier investigative agency, the FBI, disclosed that 449 of its firearms had been lost or stolen.

According to the most recent inventories available from the various federal law enforcement agencies when the GAO completed its initial review in July 2002, the U.S. government owned 243,017 firearms of various types dedicated to civilian law enforcement and prison use. The agencies with the largest number of weapons in inventory are the former INS with 54,930 and the FBI with 49,600. The FBI has the largest number of firearms still unaccounted for, 386.

The National Park Service came in second worst on the list. That agency had 196 weapons missing in July 2001. Of those, 133 had still not been found a year later. In all, the missing weapons account for less than 1 percent of the federal government's total civilian law enforcement arsenal.

Some missing federal law enforcement weapons used by criminals

The audits undertaken by the Justice and Treasury departments' Offices of the Inspector General (OIG) identified a number of incidents in which missing firearms had been located during investigations of criminal activity or during arrests.

"For example, Justice's OIG reviewed 16 missing firearms cases reported to the DEA Board of Professional Conduct, for the time period October 1, 1999, through November 15, 2001, and found that three had been recovered by local law enforcement during an arrest of an individual for a handgun violation, and two in connection with searches during unrelated criminal investigations," the GAO reported. "In another example, Treasury's OIG reviewed 10 of 13 firearms reported missing and recovered by the U.S. Customs Service, for the time period October 1, 1998, through September 30, 2001, and found that five of the 10 firearms had been recovered in connection with a robbery, a drive-by shooting or during the execution of a search warrant."

Matt Bennett of Americans for Gun Safety (AGS) - a gun control group that supports "tougher gun laws and better enforcement of those gun laws" - said the findings are "disturbing...but not particularly surprising.

"It just confirms everything that we know about how the black market in guns tends to work in this country," he said. "Many of them were stolen, and then they've made their way through the black market, through the hands of gun traffickers and into the hands of criminals."

'A systemic problem throughout the federal government'

Schatz said the fact that guns meant for federal law enforcement officers were recovered from the hands of criminals proves the agencies involved need help.

"They need to fix their controls, they need to improve their inventory management," he urged.

"It's similar...to a lot of other agencies where they lose computers, they can't find airplanes, they don't know how many vehicles they have; this is a systemic problem throughout the federal government," Schatz concluded. "When it comes to firearms, of course, it's a lot more dangerous."

The GAO report also found that:


* Some agencies do not always follow established procedures for storing firearms in vehicles or retrieving firearms from separating employees;

* Only 11 of 18 agencies required that persons assigned responsibility for conducting inventories be trained in inventory counting procedures; and

* Of the 63 recommendations made by the Justice Department inspector general in reports issued in March 2001 and August 2002, the INS, Bureau of Prisons, FBI, Drug Enforcement Administration and U.S. Marshals Service have implemented fully less than half.


Additionally, only 11 of the 18 agencies required that individuals responsible for conducting formal counts of their firearms have any training in inventory procedures.

Rep. John Dingell (D-Mich.), ranking Democrat on the Energy and Commerce Committee, called the lack of success in recovering the weapons and the failure to implement the recommended changes "simply intolerable.

"More than 800 firearms - pistols, rifles and even submachine guns - remain unaccounted for," Dingell said. "Federal law enforcement must make a concerted effort to retrieve these missing guns, [and] government agencies that utilize firearms must immediately implement the GAO's recommendations, and persons at all levels must be held accountable in cases of negligence behavior."

:mad:
 
Quote: Dingell said, "...persons at all levels must be held accountable in cases of negligence (sic) behavior."

Okay. If the idaho person can lose his means of making a living because of paperwork errors but no guns were missing, what's appropriate for those who actually lose guns?

Actually, that's what's called a rhetorical question. :D

I started seriously paying attention to federal doings in the LBJ era. I've heard numerous congresscritters talk about "accountability". They talk, but have yet to do anything meaningful.

Since, during this forty-some years nothing meaningful has been done, I think it's understandable that I'm not an optimist about any future efforts.

Art
 
Just Another Victim...

...of unconstitutional law. This should be brought to court just like the Parker case.

Woody

A law that says you cannot fire your gun in the middle of downtown unless in self defense is not unconstitutional. Laws that prohibit brandishing except in self defense or handling your gun in a threatening or unsafe manner would not be unconstitutional. Laws can be written that govern some of the uses of guns. No law can be written that infringes upon buying, keeping, storing, carrying, limiting caliber, limiting capacity, limiting quantity, limiting action, or any other limit that would infringe upon the keeping or bearing of arms. That is the truth and simple reality of the limits placed upon government by the Second Amendment to the Constitution. B.E.Wood
 
bootpin.jpg

Visit the JFPO to learn more!!!
 
I'd be interested in knowing what they consider an "not keeping track of arms returned to manufacturer." Fed Law requires it to be logged into the inventory when the customer brings it in, then logged out when it's sent out to the manufacturer or gunsmith. I've also been told, at least by my company, that we have to do a follow-up call on the firearm if it's not returned in a timely manner, though I'm not certain what they consider a timely manner, nor am I certain what the Fed's call a timely manner (I'd imagin it's considered sometime before the next presidential election).

There are a lot of things on the ATF form that you have to have right, though I think if the person's address at the top says Ohio, for instance, the "State of Residence" one at the bottom, if left blank unintentionally, shouldn't be counted against the dealer. It's a small line, crammed into a spare spot. It's easy to miss. Despite the changes for the better from the previous mess of a document (the yellow one), there is room to improve it.

I'm not sure on the other charges. I feel for the guy, and can understand the mistakes, given the volume of sales. However, the mistakes are in clear violation of the law. Perhaps a 30 or 60day suspension of his license would be in order, or maybe only a five-diget fine, as well as a class for his arms-selling employees on how to properly conduct the paperwork aspect. Even hardened criminals are given "reform" classes and sent out into the public again. I think it's only right we offer an upstanding citizen, who's only crime is being lax on paperwork (the added study up top was nice, GO Feds!!! :rolleyes: ), the opportunity to correct his ways without losing his ability to pay the bills.

Just my Opinion. I know how some people feel about the ATF forms, but as such as they are currently the law, backed by judiciary, we have to follow them. I don't however approve of the changes Ms McCArthy wants.
 
:(


He said it's not the first time the ATF has revoked the license of a Twin Falls gun dealership.

"Blue Lakes Sporting Goods lost its license," Sinclair said. "They had been there forever. It was a family business. It was a real success story, but this type of petty, technical noncompliance caused them to end up going out of business."

I grew up in Twin during the 70's through the late 80's and my main hangout was Blue Lakes Sporting Goods. They used to let me fondle all the guns (when no one was looking) and I learned a lot just from that. All of the people there were always kind to me and my friends and very patient.

Sad news to hear they're no longer there, that's for sure.
 
Let's see, problems were found during an earlier audit and the errors continued.

"Red's has paid $20,000 in legal fees protesting the ATF's decision."

Been cheaper to pay a secretarial school graduate to check the paperwork.

""I'm just sitting here going, 'What am I going to do?,'" Ryan Horsley said."

Oh now's a fine time to start planning. :confused:
 
Never mind...

...this was on Red's Trading Post Web site:

"Red's Trading Post is currently under fire from the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF). On March 5th our license to aquire firearms was revoked and is pending appeal in federal court. In the meantime we are still able to continue selling as we always have.

"A 2004 audit by the ATF claims to have uncovered several minor clerical errors. Out of nearly10,000 firearms transfered between 1996 and 2004, the alleged error rate found was not even a full percentage point. There were no missing firearms, and no willfull illegal acts."

Kimber, come to Daddy!

Mike Harbour
Texan by birth, Montanan by choice
 
JohnBT:

Let's see, problems were found during an earlier audit and the errors continued.

"Red's has paid $20,000 in legal fees protesting the ATF's decision."

Been cheaper to pay a secretarial school graduate to check the paperwork.

""I'm just sitting here going, 'What am I going to do?,'" Ryan Horsley said."

Oh now's a fine time to start planning.

You have a point. That is an excellent reason for closing down law enforcement agencies that lose or cannot account for firearms. It should be done immediately. It is too late for them to start planning not to lose them.

In fact every government agency, at every level, that makes mistakes should be closed.

By the way, are you the JohnBT who goes to gun shows in Virginia? Seems that there are more than one of you there. You're famous, jack.
 
I wonder if the ATF will go after other Feds who lost their gun and are unable to produce the proper paperwork. One can only hope.

This is an example of government hypocrisy at its finest...:cuss:
 
The government will bust your balls on clerical errors but what happens when they screw something up. Like SWAT teams raiding the wrong house or the NOLA credit cards abuses and weapons confiscations.

They just put a bunch of people out of work. When will people wake up and understand the government is suppose to be working for us?
 
More background:

Let's see, problems were found during an earlier audit and the errors continued.

JohnBT, please provide a citation for this, unless you're just making stuff up, to defend your ATF. :p Thanks.

The owner of Red's Sporting Goods added his own post, to the original article:

Ryan Horsley (id:rhorsley) wrote on March 14, 2007 7:44 AM:

"When we were audited the last time by the ATF, the agent had told us that we were “one of the best small gun shops he had audited”. It came as a shock to me that they would revoke our license, when we were audited they went through the last 5 years which we average 2,000 firearms per year. The error rate that they found was not even a full percentage point. This is not just happening to us though this is a common trend throughout the United States; the problem is with the ATF’s liberal interpretation of the word “willful”. The word “willful” was added by Ronald Reagan and Congress to protect FFL (Federal Firearms License) dealers against the ATF. Why would we honestly put our license, reputation and over 70 years in business in Jeopardy? We would never condone of illegal activity, we have always gone above and beyond what is asked of us and will continue to do so. Our family takes pride in our business and community. We will continue to fight this and received a lot of phone calls and e-mails from other dealers that are battling the same situation. The number of FFL’s in this country are on a sharp decline. I thank our friends, supporters and customers for their continued support and assure everyone that we will continue to fight this. "

By the way, isn't the Seattle ATF office the same one that modified an M-14 with a Dremel, to convert it into a machine gun; in order to prosecute Albert Kwan in Seattle?

Link: http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=2802334&postcount=48

More of the same questionable activity by ATF here?:uhoh:
 
JPFO alert: March 21, 2007; on Reds Trading Post debacle...

...several links are very informative, concerned gun owners are strongly encouraged to click on them for more background.

As I've stated before, since the Democrats have become the new organ grinders in DC, the simian ATF is happy to be dancing along!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
http://www.jpfo.org/alert20070321.htm

March 21, 2007

BATFE Killing Idaho's Oldest Gun Shop

Red's Trading Post in Twin Falls, Idaho, is the state's oldest gun shop, opened since 1936. In 2004, a routine BATFE audit revealed minor clerical errors. According to Red's, out of nearly ten THOUSAND firearms transferred between 1996 and 2004, the alleged error rate did not even reach 1%. Even the BATFE acknowledges these are minor paperwork errors -- there are no missing firearms and no willful illegal acts.

And yet the BATFE has revoked the ability of Red's Trading Post to acquire firearms for resale, although they're still permitted to sell the firearms in stock ... for now. But that's not enough -- the BATFE wants to revoke Red's license permanently.

Red's appealed, was denied, and are now headed to federal court. They have spent over two years and $20,000 in legal fees in this battle and are now taking it public. You can read more about Red's Trading Post at http://www.redstradingpost.com/atf.php and view their fact sheet (in MS Word format) at www.jpfo.org/redsatffactsheet.doc .

The Red's Trading Post site even includes an article about a competitor -- Blue Lakes Sporting Goods -- who was similarly railroaded by the BATFE. In an act of supreme hubris, the BATFE actually denied the Blue Lakes the right to appeal until AFTER they were in the middle of a "Going Out of Business" sale!

Unfortunately, as our readers know, this is hardly unusual behavior for the BATFE.

During the March 28, 2006 Congressional BATFE hearings, attorney Richard Gardiner testified that the BATFE's "enforcement" tends to focus on trivial violations that do not affect public safety, and that the BATFE imposes an unreasonable standard of perfection on FFLs ( http://judiciary.house.gov/media/pdfs/gardiner032806a.pdf ). That latter is especially ironic considering the extremely poor state of the BATFE's own record-keeping, about which they routinely perjure themselves in court (see and hear it from the mouth of the NFA Branch chief himself at http://www.jpfo.org/rollcall.mp4 ).

JPFO understands that enough is enough. We plan to bring this rogue agency to its knees with our upcoming documentary _The Gang_ ( www.jpfo.org/thegang.htm). Throughout its production, we've received help from criminal investigators, historians, attorneys, BATFE victims, rock legend Ted Nugent, Knob Creek Enterprises, _Unintended Consequences_ author John Ross, and many others. Everyone who understands the true threat to our freedoms that the BATFE poses owes these people a very big thank you.

We plan to list these heroes in the Producer's Circle of the film credits -- it's the least we can do. And it's not too late for YOU to join them. If you want to be listed in the Producers circle, we need your contribution RIGHT NOW. Go to http://shop.jpfo.org/cart.php?m=product_detail&p=16 . A donation of $250 or more will get you listed, plus you'll receive a free DVD copy of the finished film and a copy of our book _"Gun Control": Gateway to Tyranny_.

Do it for Red's Trading Post. Do it for Blue Lakes Sporting Goods. Do it for ALL the victims of the BATFE's arbitrary, capricious "enforcement". Most of all, do it for yourself.

Do it today.

- The Liberty Crew
 
Here's the Red's Trading Post fact sheet with more links and information...

Here is another Idaho story that makes our story look like a cake walk:

http://www.survival-enterprises.com/summary.html

Our Competitor Blue Lakes Sporting Goods was forced out of business in the same way; however ATF DIO Richard Van Loan never allowed them to appeal the ATF’s decision. It was not until the urging of Senator Craig that they were allowed to have an appeal but by then they were in the middle of their “Going out of business sale” here is a letter from our competitor:
http://www.magicvalley.com/articles/2007/03/18/opinion/letters/108401_14.txt

Congress was aware of the offenses by the BATF that is why they introduced H.R. 5092, the “Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (BATFE) Modernization and Reform Act of 2006:
http://www.nraila.org/CurrentLegislation/Read.aspx?ITNDrop=2121-L

This received bipartisan support, one of our attorneys Richard Gardiner had spoken before Congress telling about the abuses:
http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewNation.asp?Page=\Nation\archive\200603\NAT20060329a.html

H.R. 5092 was passed by Congress but was placed on hold by Senator Dianne Feinstein of California who has long supported Gun Control:
http://feinstein.senate.gov/06releases/r-guns928.htm

Agent Caleb Rushing who did our last inspection and declared to us that we were one of the best gun shops that he had inspected, is in this story about a Blind Man who they revoked his license:
http://www.mailtribune.com/archive/2006/0323/biz/stories/01biz.htm

ATF DIO Richard Van Loan who has refused to allow us to obtain any new firearms and has found us guilty before we have had a chance to be heard in court was at the center of the Washington DC Sniper case when the Bulls Eye Shooters Club had nearly 400 missing firearms, one of which was the firearm that was used in the DC Sniper shootings:
http://www.neahin.org/programs/schoolsafety/gunsafety/stbullseye.htm

Shooting Sports Retailer Magazine has reported that in 2006 the number of FFL revocation was up nearly 6 times what is was in 2001.

The Number of Gun Dealers in U.S. Drops Almost 80 Percent—From 245,628 to 54,902—Since 1994 till 2005
http://www.vpc.org/press/0603dealers.htm

Our audit consisted of searching back through 5 years of transactions; we have average 2,000 transactions per year. The error rate on these petty clerical violations cannot even muster a full percentage.

We were inspected in 2000 when one of our biggest violations was that customers were writing “Y” or “N” into the small boxes instead of “Yes” or “No”, the agents in charge told us that they “Y” or “N” could be construed to mean something else.

In 2001 a follow up compliance check was done and found that we were in compliance. The last audit in 2005 in which they labeled the violations as “willful” a word which Ronald Reagan and Congress put into the wording to protect dealers from this sort of harassment by the ATF. These were new violations and many of them conflicting with what we were told by previous ATF agents.

As soon as we filed our petition in Federal Court, the ATF was quick to tell us that we could no longer acquire any firearms, which according to my attorney who represents dealers all across the nation; Richard Van Loan is the only DIO (Director of Industry Operations) is the only DIO that takes this position.

Chris Chiafullo, who is an attorney who has represented Manufacturers and Distributors.
http://www.chiafullogroup.com

At the AcuSport Distributor show in January, Chiafullo was a featured speaker telling dealers that the ATF could not go after the Manufacturers and Distributors and has since turned their sights on the FFL dealers.
 
keep defending

those arrogant bullies and one day all you'll have to left to vent frustration will be the "we demand food" poster you'll be carrying in the streets.


Any force acting on behalf of those trying to disarm the good among us, especially a paramilitary force of thugs, is no good for the future of our country. Feinstein just needs to feel what it's like to be a commoner, having to defend one's own family and person, or surviving in the mountains, for once. She's a pawn of Satan as far as I'm concerned, and so is the whole lot of JBT's.
:cuss:
 
I am no lover of the Federal Government, my posts speak for themselves. However, skipping through this thread, I didn't read one person who analyzed this correctly (forgive me if this has been mentioned). Any U.S Government form, any!!! Social Security Card Form, Government Welfare Form, Military Form of any nature, U.S Customs & Passport, IRS, etc. etc etc. Any of these that are not filled out properly will not be acted upon. Even minor typos invalidate these forms, spaces left unanswered will invalidate them until corrected or filled out. The ATF may be a lot of things, but amongst them, they are a U.S Government Agency and therefore are as ANAL as any other U.S Government agency when it comes to forms. Let's be intelligent here gentlemen (& Ladies), this is entirely Red's fault by his own admission, and cursing out the ATF for doing nothing more than their job is wrong and IT WEAKENS OUR POINT OF VIEW when they do something that is REALLY ILLEGAL or IMMORAL. Red admitted to clerical violations, and what the heck do you guys think separate an FFL from a non-FFL if not the paperwork? An FFL is basically a Notary for transferring guns, that's it, and that is exactly what he screwed up. I dislike Washington and it's deathgrip on the States, but we only weaken our selves when we take up cases based on emotion and not based on Constitutional Law.
 
So fine him or put him on probation. Pulling the livelihood away from him for some typos is indeed very petty. If he willfully did this then this is what he gets, however, if they were a handful of human errors made in five errors cut the man some slack.
 
JPFO had an alert on this matter within the last few days. Included were some interesting links concerning the antics of AFT or BATFE, if you prefer their current name.

People might find this alert worth reading. Try www.jpfo.org
 
ok's post hit the nail on the head george, govt. agencies have a lot of leeway when it comes to whom they investigate and what remedies they seek. Fines or suspensions are a tool the ATF has at it's disposal, not just revoking the license. I like the juxtposition of the articles about federal agency gross incompetence as well as ATF faulty record keeping.

If the standard the ATF applied to Red's was applied to the ATF...they would have had their "Jack Boot" license revoked during their first year in existence.

but we only weaken our selves when we take up cases based on emotion and not based on Constitutional Law.
Nothing about the BATFE (it's very existence) nor anything about the regulations they enforce (which are not actual laws) have anything to do with the Constitution or Constitutional law. The federal laws passed by Congress are the big picture...the minutea of how a federal agency interprets and enforces them (or enforces their ever changing interpretations) isn't Constitutional. It's not necessarily un-Constitutional either...but an ATF or IRS regulation isn't the same as a law passed by Congress. The courts have awarded these agencies the power to pass regulations that have the effect as law, but are not laws. Put's us citizens at a huge disadvantage....

I think shutting down a person's livelyhood for clerical errors that do not endanger the public is immoral. How is the public put in danger by non-existant guns? (Remember, all his firearms are accounted for.) Fine the guy and move on....
 
Strambo, Apparently Income is also not taxable by law, we still pay it or go to jail.

I am not being unsympathetic, just detached, the law is impersonal.

"He who consents to an act is not wronged by it." MAXIMS OF JURISPRUDENCE The Civil Code of the State of California

If this is a thread to vent against the ATF, that's fine, did the ATF do more than close the shop? Is he facing fines or Jail?

Don't make me take the Fed's side, all I'm saying is that in today's atmosphere, there isn't an FFL in business that doesn't understand that any minor mistake is cause for revocation of FFL at the very least, which is why I won't go that route and I really would like to become one, but I am a scatterbrain and know I will screw up. I feel bad for Red but I still say that dealing with the feds is like sticking your fingers in the Lion's cage, only experts should attempt.
 
Well, if the ATF only focuses on revoking licenses from gun stores who make clerical errors and abandones all of it's other efforts...and Congress never passes another anti-gun law...where will our RKBA be in 10 years?

All humans make mistakes, if every gun store that makes a clerical error on the ATF forms loses it's license...there will be no RKBA! Where will you get them? The firearms business is already high inventory cost/low margin...if many gun stores are driven out of business, who will take the chance of having their livelyhood stripped away just to sell us guns? Other businesses aren't like this.

"He who consents to an act is not wronged by it."
OK, but if nobody chooses to consent to the regulations of the ATF and get an FFL...all citizens are wronged because they cannot exercise their 2nd Amend RKBA because no one had the guts to "consent" to the ATF stupidity and put their livelyhood at risk. We'll end up with a lot of insurance salesmen and no gun strores.

I know, I'll just build an 80% kit! That way I don't need a gun store...oops how about KT Ordinance? ATF went and re-defined what a firearm means on him...maybe.:confused: He hasn't actually been charged with any crime, but had all his assets seized. Had to sue the ATF to get his assets back...and they still haven't charged him. They (ATF) gave in and returned his assets so they could take more time to think up some charges. Gee, they're swell...not exactly enforcing the "law"...they are making stuff up as they go along.
 
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