attacker with gun vs attacker with edged weapon

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daytodaze

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Another thread got me thinking about how these two situations might need to be handled differently.

Assailant with gun: shoot center mass or head shot
Assailant with edge weapon: shoot lower abdomen and pelvis to immobilize.

Ayoob, my instructors, and a lot of additional research suggest there may be some validity to this, but I honestly have no clue if I would be able to process them differently and react properly in a fight or flight scenario.

What do you guys think?
 
My opinion is to shoot COM in every situation that requires shooting. Whether that COM is a torso or a posterior, I shoot the middle of what I'm shooting at. Your hit ratio is going to suffer to some degree then the balloon goes up, so why make it even more difficult?

There has been a lot of discussion about the "Pelvic Girdle" shot and I have no doubt that it's worked a time or two (or ten). But if it's MY butt on the line, I'll stick with what I KNOW works. There's too many variables in delivering a crushing blow, rather than an icepick, to a solid mass of bone surrounded by a lot of soft tissue.
 
COM shots have the problem that, even if you shoot the attacker in the heart or aorta, he's still got maybe 10 seconds of consiousness: if he's close, an attacker with a knife can kill you in that time. They also have the problem that, if the attacker is wearing a bullet-resistant vest, he'll have a lot more than 10 seconds. It has been said, "We don't shoot COM because it's the best, but because it's the biggest."

A CNS shot will instantly stop an attacker, and with a penetrative round you might get a CNS hit on a COM shot. But the biggest CNS target is the head (not all of the head is CNS), though it is still a small, very mobile target. That smallness matters less the closer the attacker is.

The pelvis shot, if it breaks something structural (femur head) will also put him down immediately. There are varying opinions about how difficult it is to break the "pelvic ring" and whether a single break in it will leave the attacker immobile. However, the pelvis will almost never be covered by kevlar.

I have used the "pelvic" shot on an escaping large animal I wounded while hunting. I did not aim centrally, but for the head of the femur. The shot anchored the animal instantly.

And there you have it. Pick your poison. Being in a fight with a knife-wielder running at you has no perfect response, except back away, have one arm ready to block, and shoot for as long as it takes (or as long as you can).
 
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Assailant with edge weapon: shoot lower abdomen and pelvis to immobilize.
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I might agree if I had a long gun, but with a handgun, no. Loosedhorse has a great point (where exactly to shoot) that seems to meet with most of the RKIs assertions/opinions on the pelvic girdle shot. It's not quite the large target area some folks paint. :uhoh:

My thinking is that a BG with a blade is going to be close when he initiates his assault. My priorities then will be more towards getting off the X while engaging the BG. As I'm a firm advocate of the four count drawstroke, suspect that a shot(s) to the cranium on a BG trying to cut me might work better for me.
 
Gen. N.B. Forrest having been shot in the pelvis,tried to control his assailants gun with one hand while retrieving his pocket knife and opening it with his teeth,he successfully opened up his attacker, at which point both retired from the fight.Later the two men both apologized and forgave the other, the Lieutenant later expired, while the General returned to duty.
303tom, While I am sure the General wouldn't have chosen the knife, he used what was available at his time of duress...the rest was up to God. That said I wouldn't "go" for a pelvic shot, not because of this one incident,but because it would be too unreliable and maybe too slow in effect.
robert
 
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I think different situations will warrant different shot placement. General rule of thumb is center mass whatever that may be at the time. With that said, if you are in a close quarter battle with someone with a knife then you ideally should be in a retention position using your off hand for protection, striking, etc. Depending on the angle you are shooting from retention and the heigth of you and your assailant your shots will often go into the lower abdomen and/or pelvic area. This is all of course assuming you even have a chance to draw your weapon in the first place. Situations may differ but there is a good chance you will either need to disarm the assailant or somehow create enough space between you and the assailant to even get your firearm out let alone worry about shot placement.
 
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I would shoot for COM if there was enough distance to run away until the assailant bled out. At close range I would probably shoot for the shoulder blade of the knife wielding hand. At extremely close range, maybe the shoulder. If the bones and nerves are destroyed, the knife fight is over.
 
Center of Mass in a gunfight is Center of Visible Mass. If both participating parties are playing by the Big Boy rules you should be aiming at what you can see and shooting at it as often as possible.
Any idea of, I will shoot here when this happens and there when that happens, and if .......goes right out the window when you aren't behind a keyboard and actually participate in a armed confrontation.
A lot of this stuff is waaaaaay over thought.
Shoot what you can see and shoot it until the threat is over.
 
The sad truth is that real life situations happen so fast that it might take you a week or so (if you survive) to figure out exactly what happened.... Shoot center of mass (and aim just a bit low since you'll almost always shoot high when your pucker has you by the throat...). That's the same advice I gave more than one rookie.... One additional thought, a knife wielder is terribly dangerous at close quarters. You might actually have to outrun the guy even after hitting him/her with a killing shot or you're going to need a doctor, a hospital, and some luck... More than one assailant or victim that was mortally wounded managed to take their opponent to the grave with them. The idea is to survive - by any means possible, that once in a lifetime encounter. That's why I always had a shotgun in my hands if I thought there was any possibility of an armed confrontation.
 
Always handle the knife first. A knife is more deadly than a gun in terms of wounding potential, so we need a technique like the Dog Catcher (Marc Denny) to arrest his ability to harm us with it.

If you're curious about this particular techniqe, the video is "Die Less Often", and it's an eye opener/ You'll never say "He brought a knife to a gun fight" again, but you may say "He brought a gun to a knife fight". SOme great sparring and some great instruction in all of Marc's videos.
 
I'm skeptical that you'll have time to make the decision to change the point of aim you've trained to use. Knife attacks are sudden, aggressively carried out and bring the attacker to you quickly. There are very few that use choreography from West Side Story.

Stick to what you know, COM to CNS and learn to how to move when someone is charging you.
 
It doesn't matter. The eye is trained to focus on the threat and the gun will be pointed there. Miliseconds to live is not the time for precision shooting.
 
It has been shown that an agile knife man can cover 20 ft or more before the average CCW person can draw and fire. Whether it is a knife man or gunman there is a technique called getting off the X in which you move out of the line of fire or knife attack. The reason is that even if you shoot first your assailant can still seriously wound you even if he is mortally wounded prior to expiring. In a fight you will most likely be focused on your attacker and not be capble of acquiring a perfect sight picture to hit specific parts of the anatomy. If it were possible for me for close range encounters say at 7 yrds or less I would use a machine pistol and aim at the groin and as the gun raises up it should open the goblin like a can opener as the gun travels upwards. What I have been taught is that in lieu of of full auto, trigger many shots with your 9mm and let the gun walkup th the head or until the goblin goes down and also move out of the way if possible. Always seek cover when it is possible.
 
In a fight you will most likely be focused on your attacker and not be capable of acquiring a perfect sight picture to hit specific parts of the anatomy
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You don't have to have a perfect sight picture to hit what you need to hit. Training and experience with a timer will show you how much sight picture you need to make good hits fast. As Tom Givens said, you don't have time to miss at close range. A good solid presentation allows you to use the sights to verify alignment, not achieve it.

trigger many shots with your 9mm and let the gun walk up to the head
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Why? If you are shooting between the nipples and above the diaphragm, why waste time? If you are planning to start at the belt buckle, that's just silly. Big game hunters have hundreds of years experience shooting critters with vastly more powerful weapons than most handguns. "Gut shooting" is a sure fire way to have said critter run off. Our purpose is to make the bad guy quit running at us.
 
Any idea of, I will shoot here when this happens and there when that happens, and if .......goes right out the window when you aren't behind a keyboard and actually participate in a armed confrontation.
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In FOF training, one of the first things to go "out the window" is any type of aimed fire whatever (for new participants). Misses and low hits (legs, lower abdomen...shoes) are common, in my (limited) experience.

Just because aimed fire might ""go out the window" in a true firefight doesn't mean we shouldn't train to achieve aimed fire (when practical and superior to unaimed fire) and plan on using it.

Similarly, those of us who choose to train for and plan on choosing certain body targets in certain situations (the Mozambique "faiure to stop" drill is probably the most common example) should realize that our plan "might go out the window"--and train that much harder to try to achieve it.

Me? You guys aim COM if you want. I'm aiming for the heart. Left ventricle, actually. Quickly.

:D
 
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A knife to a gunfight ? OK
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Inside of lunging distance, a knife is just as lethal as a firearm. Worse still, you most likely can't grapple it without being seriously injured. Nobody gets out of a knife fight without getting hurt.

A person with a knife is absolutely a deadly threat.

As to where you shoot a knife-wielding attacker.......anywhere you can. If you can hit COM, great. If you can hit head, great. Just hit him somewhere.
 
Here's my opinion: Center of Mass, and empty the magazine. If you do even a bit of trying to hit moving targets in something like paintball, then you'd understand just how hard it would be to target an individual body part. I haven't done all that much force on force, but it is true that precision aim absconds out of the bomb bay of a B-52. Thinking about always wanting to hit center chest goes from goal to 'anything that hits him is good enough. If you can can deal with immanent death with calmness and discipline, then congratulations, you've got it covered. Now as for the attacker wearing body armor, that's practically out of the question. Body armor is seriously expensive, and being shot, even if your armor is not breached, can seriously hurt as if someone decided to baseball bat some spot on your abdomen. The first time I ever did force on force, the guys I was with were rather surprised that I managed to stay composed enough to aim my shots and hit my target about half the time.

And I forgot to mention that a moving target that is coming at you from the side or an angle instantly makes scoring a hit significantly harder. One idea I have yet to try is to attempt to strafe around the thread towards whichever side holds the weapon because it denies him a good angle with the knife.
 
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I'd say go for the chest area, it's pretty big. If they stand sideways, it's gonna be a little harder to hit.
 
I'd say go for the chest area, it's pretty big. If they stand sideways, it's gonna be a little harder to hit.
Center of visible mass means the center of what you can see. If you are playing peek a boo around the corner and all you can see is the hand, line up center of the hand and fire. Waiting for the perfect shot, or the perfect shot for this or that type attack might not be the best course of action.
The neat thing about high capacity magazines is that you can reapply this center of visble mass often and one hit will probobly lead to more.
 
Even though I've been shooting since the mid 1950's and I continue to shoot almost every day (home range), I understand I'm not nearly as good or fast as the shooters that, under pressure, can pick the specific body part they want to hit.

Personally, I figure I'm going to try and quickly put a lot of bullets in the biggest body parts I see.
 
If you felt threatened enough to pull and use your gun, then death to the attacker. This "trying to wound" is grounds for a lawsuit
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To be clear: if I aim COM, head, or pelvis on an attacker, I am not trying to kill, I am not trying to wound. I am trying to stop. My choice of target area will depend on which one (or which combination) seems to me to give the greatest chance of stopping that particular attacker in that particular situation.

Any use of a firearm against an attacker, no matter the aiming point, represents the use of lethal force. I do NOT expect pelvic shots to be less lethal than COM or head shots: they are all lethal force.
it is true that precision aim absconds out of the bomb bay of a B-52.
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That's a pity, because the first shot will not win a gunfight, nor will the first hit--but the first good hit might do it. If I can't try to achieve that with aim, what am I left with? Luck? Spray and pray?

Nah. I think I'll aim (if the distance requires it). Consider Bill Hickok's advice:
Whenever you get into a row be sure and not shoot too quick. Take time, I've known many a feller to slip up for shootin' in a hurry.
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It has been shown that an agile knife man can cover 20 ft or more before the average CCW person can draw and fire. Whether it is a knife man or gunman there is a technique called getting off the X in which you move out of the line of fire or knife attack.
This is the best advice, I would think.
The reason I stress Center of visible mass is that, you do need to get off the X. Moving, or moving to cover changes the center of visible mass. Shooting to the center of what you see while you move would seem to me to be the correct answer.
If attacked with a knife, although the attacker has the advantage, moving and keeping all available distance may be the only way to counter the attack. Distance equals time to draw and shoot, distance equals time to find an object to put between you and your attacker.
I have often read about the 20 foot rule, but if I am correct that rule would apply dramatically different in a car strewn parking lot than say, on the 50 yard line of a football field.
The comparison of distance and time to react and draw change when you move off the X. For example, Putting an open car door between you and a knife attack changes your attackers decison making process, changes his time to reach his target (You) and changes his Center of Mass to Center of visible mass.
I like the debate here, I certainly did not mean to offend anyone earlier.
Thanks
A/M
 
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