AZ: LEO disarming CCW Civil

[Steve in PA]

"An officer has to use the back of their hands to search........."

No they do not. However, they cannot manipulate the object.

 

[beatcop]

Dbro20-... An officer has to use the back of their hands to search, if they feel that their is a weapon in your pocket they will ask you to empty your pockets. If you pull out an ounce of marijuana, the officer can use that as evidence, even if their was no knife or weapon in that pocket. The officer only needs to believe that their is a weapon, if the cop feels a cell phone or any hard object they can ask you to empty your pockets.

Since we are talking Terry...

You pat down during a Terry "style" encounter for weapons, not evidence (drugs, contraband, etc.) The exception to the rule is "plain feel doctrine"; if you feel something and it's READILY APPARENT that that it's a dime bag, crack pipe, syringe, etc. the evidence stands.

The manner in which the search is conducted is really not an issue, the ofc may use any part of their hand they desire, or a kubotan for that matter. Out of "courtesty" to the opposite sex, most will try to avoid palming any sexual areas. The most common technique employs the knuckle-side of the hand.

As far as items in the pockets, if it feels like a phone there's really no need to remove it unless we articulate the dreaded "cell phone gun". There's a limit on the amount of "feeling" that can be used. It's a grab,grope, squeeze, not a braille reading class.

 

[arizonaguide]

If I get pulled over for a traffic stop...

I am going to keep my hands visable on the stearing wheel in plain sight when the officer comes to the vehicle. I am going to tell the officer I'm carrying and offer him my ccw automatically with my license, and ask him if he wants me to disarm.

I will then do exactly as the officer directs me to do with the weapon.
If he asks me to unload it and keep it open with the slideback, that's not too much trouble for me.
If he asks me to put it in the trunk for my trip home, or until he's gone, I will gladly do so.

It may NOT be the exact letter of the law, but if it makes one of my sworn officers comfortable for that small amount of time out of my life, I will gladly offer to do so.

I don't think that will set a bad precidence that will effect my future CCW or second amendment rights.

Remember, this is the guy that drives/runs TOWARD the gunshots fired in anger...and puts his butt on the line everyday.
If this small show of respect on my part puts him more at ease with My little traffic stop...well it's not too much to ask, for me anyway.

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

arizona guide
i couldn't agree more. and have gotten decent results from that policy. i can believe there are some cops out there that are jerks but whenever i hear of one person with multiple bad experiences i start to wonder is it the cops or someone who creates situations

 

[Guns and more]

So many jailhouse lawyers. The bottom line is: when it's you and the LEO, he is the law. He may be right or wrong, but at that time (unless you like being tasered) he is in charge. Now, after the fact, you can hire an attorney at great expense, and see how far it goes. I'm guessing most reasonable people will shut up and then lose respect for LEO's.

 

[akodo]

Waterhouse writes

Exp, I read everything you wrote and I still think Terry can come into play with a traffic violation

yes, sort of.

An officer can do an Terry search any time he/she "reasonably believes a person is armed and presently dangerous to the officer or others." This covers any lawful LEO interaction with the general public, including traffic stops.

In a traffic stop, Terry can ONLY be sued to frisk if the officer can articulate something specific that is causing him to be in fear of being harmed.

 

[akodo]

Arizonaguide writes

I will then do exactly as the officer directs me to do with the weapon.

Does this include giving it to the officer and allowing him to drive away with it, expecting you to come to the station later with a purchase recipt and 3 letters from character witnesses, notorized, saying you are a safe, upstanding citizen?

 

[zxcvbob]

Does this include giving it to the officer and allowing him to drive away with it, expecting you to come to the station later with a purchase recipt and 3 letters from character witnesses, notorized, saying you are a safe, upstanding citizen?

The thing is, you don't know when you hand it over what the conditions will be to get it back. I don't think there's a good answer to your question. You're in an untenable position when they ask (demand) that you hand it over.

 

[Jeff White]

Does this include giving it to the officer and allowing him to drive away with it, expecting you to come to the station later with a purchase recipt and 3 letters from character witnesses, notorized, saying you are a safe, upstanding citizen?

Yes it does. The side of the road is no place to argue law. You do that in the courtroom. You can be totally right about the issue you are disputing and still be convicted for obstructing justice or a similar offense. Right or wrong, on the side of the road, what the officer says goes. Hand it over, call your lawyer and win in court. You will not win on the side of the road and an attempt to could land you in a totally different kind of trouble.

 

[arizonaguide]

Does this include giving it to the officer and allowing him to drive away with it, expecting you to come to the station later with a purchase recipt and 3 letters from character witnesses, notorized, saying you are a safe, upstanding citizen?

Yeah, unfortunately it does. Hopefully it doesn't come to that.
I may not agree with the person, but I have to respect the "office" of police officer. That's our system.

Yes, there are some officers that may have a bad attitude, or not be correct on the law...but I have to follow their wishes in that Dangerous situation. Each traffic stop (to them) is one of the MOST dangerous situations a LEO can put himself in (day in/day out), and anything I can do to make him more "at ease" will be more likely to end with each other being treated with respect (and my Gun going home with me).

Having many friends and family in Law Enforcement, I realize that after a while an attitude develops in an officer that they have a hard time trusting ANYONE (civilian) outside their circle of LEO buddies. Civilians almost get "assumed" as "the enemy". Not busting on Police here(at all!), It's just the way it is, because of their jobs!

This is human nature, and survival instinct on their part. There are people that will kill them JUST because they wear the uniform...(and AT RANDOM!).

Think of it this way:
A police officer is like a soldier in Iraq, except they "fight" in the same "area of operations" (town/city) as their own family, and never really get to "go home on leave" because their AO is their home area. Bad stuff can even "follow them home"(and sometimes DOES) to their family. They have to be paranoid at all times, and they NEVER really "get a rest" from "Operational Security"!!!.

That would be exhausting and draining to me, and I'm learning that I couldn't live that way. But they DO! (and Hopefully it's because of their sense of HONOR, in the GOOD officers, at least!) Many Police Officers are killed each year in just such traffic stops, and they get a picture on a wall somewhere, and the widow gets a folded American Flag.


But, for whatever reason, our sworn and uniformed officers (yes, even including security guards, who we laugh and sell short usually as "cop wannabes" or "mall ninjas") DO live that way, day in/day out. People will kill you for no other reason than because you represent "authority"!!! (or for a set of NIKE tennis shoes, or to initiate into a gang, etc, etc, etc.)
I ALWAYS cooperate ANY way I can, and 98% of the time have good results (am sent on my way, with respect). The other 2% does suck.

 

[twoclones]

When I get pulled over,(all the time) the officer always unloads my gun and asks that I leave it unloaded with the slide in the open position until I am out of his sight or he is out of mine

Wow. I've been pulled over for dead trailer lights and expired plates, etc and have NEVER had the LEO ask to even see my weapon. I once volunteered mine to a WA hiway patrolman who gave me a ride when I ran out of gas. He thanked me repeatedly and handed the loaded revolver back to me when we returned to my truck.

The one time a LEO asked me why I was carrying, I replied, "Same reason you are."

 

[TCB in TN]

t may NOT be the exact letter of the law, but if it makes one of my sworn officers comfortable for that small amount of time out of my life, I will gladly offer to do so.

I don't think that will set a bad precidence that will effect my future CCW or second amendment rights.

Remember, this is the guy that drives/runs TOWARD the gunshots fired in anger...and puts his butt on the line everyday.
If this small show of respect on my part puts him more at ease with My little traffic stop...well it's not too much to ask, for me anyway.

Sorry, cant agree with far to much here. I have no desire for any officer to be harmed. Happen to have both family, and life long friends in the LE business. But I am not going through life to make someone else comfortable. I am a citizen, and as such I have the right to be just as "comfortable" as anyone else, that include a LEO. I will not put my legally carried weapon in the trunk for the ride home. I will if ordered put my weapon in the trunk until the officer takes off.

Now if I was treated in an unfair manner, then I would be on my cell phone to the particular agency requesting the proper complaint forms before the officer got out of sight. Were the officer to TAKE my legally carried weapon, then I would be requesting a supervisor on the scene immediately, and would be having my lawyer meeting me there. If at the end of the day I felt my rights were infringed upon then I would be taking the officer to court as fast as my lawyers little fingers could write up the papers.

Lastly I know even less about the officer pulling me over then he knows about me. He can find out my date of birth, driving record, Carry permit information, where I live, phone info, family records, and I am sure a host of other information in only a few seconds. If he doesn't think he can trust me, then why pray tell should I be trusting him. We have seen the statistics on here time and time again that permit holders have lower crime rate than officers, and so why would I feel more comfortable with him then he does with me?

BTW I have pulled articles in the past for many small towns and have seen LOTS of dirt on officers that work there. Nothing magical about putting on a LE uniform. Officers are just people too. Some good, some bad, some that are just somewhere in between. An officer's safety is less of my concern than my own. Sorry if you don't agree.

 

[arizonaguide]

Think of it this way:
A police officer is like a soldier in a war zone, except they "fight" in the same "area of operations" (town/city) as their own family, and never really get to "go home on leave". They HAVE to be paranoid...even "at home"...that's 24/7/365!!! Think about it!

Each traffic stop (to them) is one of the MOST dangerous situations a LEO can put himself in (day in/day out), and anything I can do to make him more "at ease" will be more likely to end with each other being treated with respect, and good results.

It's about both of our comfort levels, and working through a difficult situation using dignity and respect towards a positive end for both parties.

Yes, even if I was treated in a slightly "unfair manner", (rookie, perhaps? even a jerk maybe) I try to give them a lot of leeway, because this is human nature, and survival instinct on their part. To the point of Danger, NO...but to the point of my mild "discomfort", heck yeah!

I see no reason to cause a fuss or get lawyers involved if it's a mild annoyance situation (and yes, even including a trip to the station...I might even make some new friends). They (and their families) risk SO much for you and I.

Nothing magical about putting on a LE uniform. Officers are just people too. Some good, some bad

All true, but they still stand between you and I, and the dirtbags of the world...and so they get extra respect and cooperation from ME!
The LAST thing I'm gonna do is get a defensive attitude...likely that will NOT end well.

If it's a "jerk" or perhaps someone who's had a hard day...I'll try (gentle) humor...and usually the "jerk" part disappears, and is quickly replaced by a human being.

If that don't work (and usually it DOES!), I'll still cooperate, and then press on...with as much cooperation/little resistance as possible. As someone said above "The side of the road is no place to argue law", and in the "short term" you will lose.
"Officer Discression" can work for you, or against you, usually based on your attitude!

 

[TCB in TN]

All true, but they still stand between you and I, and the dirtbags of the world...and so they get extra respect and cooperation from ME!
The LAST thing I'm gonna do is get a defensive attitude...likely that will NOT end well.

No they don't. They do not stand between you and anyone else. LEO are there to pick up the pcs. Again I have family in the business and to be honest I rode along as a reserve here local for a short time. They are there to take notes, pictures, file a report, and occasionally arrest someone. I happen to appreciate the service. I happen to admire the courage that many display, and feel that they are paid far less than they deserve, but they are not there to stand between us and evil. And that is not just my opinion, I have case law backing me up on that!

 

[arizonaguide]

You may have a point there TCB.
Perhaps I'm brainwashed by too much TV, and what I "want" to believe.

I was also for sometime wanting to be a policeman, then after seeing some of the stuff with my LEO relatives(not using car seats for their children, etc), and riding along (as yourself) with law enforcement I was disillusioned. It's a Little thing, I know...but it does speak volumes.

Then after learning about the whole "all civilians are ____" attitude I kinda realized that it wasn't exactly about "helping people". Again, I'm not busting on LEO here, just speaking about the nature of the job from what I've seen.

So you may have some valid points TCB, and I probably just try (perhaps blindly) "to keep a positive attitude" and give each the benefit of the doubt (as being the exception) when I have to deal with them. I ran into a good one yesterday, in fact...who took the "reality" of the situation into acount, and gave me some "officer discretion" in my favor...on a traffic issue. It was Coming home from a "Cabella's" nightmare, with my pistol on the front seat that I had intended to trade in at Cabella's.
Never will I shop at the gun counter at Cabella's again!

The whole trip was a nightmare, but that's another story. He was one of the "good ones"...but I gave good attitude to start with.

 

[aehall10]

One final thought

I am a lawyer and a police officer, so I'll offer my 2 cents worth. I also live in California, however, so everything I say is probably a little suspect. As a LEO, an attorney, a member of the NRA and a gun collector, I have an interest in gun rights from a variety of perspectives.

Waterhouse has done a very good job of articulating case law. I agree with his legal analysis. Because we are discussing case law, however, it is good to remember that case law (interpretation of the law) is never quite set in stone. There may always be some distinguishing feature in the facts of each case. This is, in fact, how case law evolves. It is important for us to keep this in mind because case law is settled, if ever, long after an event occurs. Police officers apply evolving case law, as best as they understand it, to the unique circumstances of each case.

So without going into a long discussion of this event, I would say the officer was reasonable in disarming you for the duration of the traffic stop, to ensure his own safety. Indeed, I have surrendered my own weapon to an officer during a traffic stop, as have other officers to me.

In California, as in most states, speeding is an infraction and a violation of law. It may be a minor violation of the law, but a violation nonetheless. I'm not sure of the law in Arizona regarding this issue.

Even so, the manner by which the "disarming"was done in this case seems a bit more heavy-handed than necessary. CCW holders, generally speaking, are pleasant and law-abiding folk. Had the officer simply said he wanted to hold your weapon for safekeeping during the duration of the car-stop, I'm certain it would not have seemed so intrusive. This is particularly true, as Cassandrasdaddy points out, if the officer is alone.

All of the above being said, and all of the below being recognized as a vigorous and healthy discussion of an issue that would probably get a split vote by the Supreme Court (as did Terry, by the way), I would like to thank you for raising the issue and debating it. I found it thought provoking and will share it with others.

There you go. Barely worth 2 cents.

 

[TCB in TN]

ou may have a point there TCB.
Perhaps I'm brainwashed by too much TV, and what I "want" to believe.

I was also for sometime wanting to be a policeman, then after seeing some of the stuff with my LEO relatives(not using car seats for their children, etc), and riding along (as yourself) with law enforcement I was disillusioned. It's a Little thing, I know...but it does speak volumes.

Then after learning about the whole "all civilians are ____" attitude I kinda realized that it wasn't exactly about "helping people". Again, I'm not busting on LEO here, just speaking about the nature of the job from what I've seen.

So you may have some valid points TCB, and I probably just try (perhaps blindly) "to keep a positive attitude" and give each the benefit of the doubt (as being the exception) when I have to deal with them. I ran into a good one yesterday, in fact...who took the "reality" of the situation into acount, and gave me some "officer discretion" in my favor...on a traffic issue. It was Coming home from a "Cabella's" nightmare, with my pistol on the front seat that I had intended to trade in at Cabella's.
Never will I shop at the gun counter at Cabella's again!

The whole trip was a nightmare, but that's another story. He was one of the "good ones"...but I gave good attitude to start with.

I seriously thought about becoming a LEO as well. I have watched as very, very good officers were cussed and ridiculed for doing their job, and watched them behave in a respectful, professional manner. I have watched a couple of cowboy officers who really scared me, as well. My main concern is the mentality about an officer having a bad day. We talk a lot on here about the responsibility of those of us who conceal carry, and yet some of those same people will give just about ANY LEO a pass on improper behavior just because of the badge. My cousin (who is a THP officer) made the statement that bad cops are worse than criminals. They not only break the law, the break the publics trust. (He happens to be one officer I greatly admire.) I also have a good friend on the TBI who I have heard make very similar comments. I want to thank all of you good LEOs out there for you service. I am NOT anti LEO, I am very much anti BAD LEO, Power Tripping LEO, and the US against them LEO.

 

[aehall10]

The Public's Trust

You're cousin is right. LEO authority is derived from a grant of power given to them by the people. It only works so long as the people trust in law enforcement to do what's right. That trust is sacred and every good officer will treat it as such.

 

[arizonaguide]

I seriously thought about becoming a LEO as well. I have watched as very, very good officers were cussed and ridiculed for doing their job, and watched them behave in a respectful, professional manner. I have watched a couple of cowboy officers who really scared me, as well. My main concern is the mentality about an officer having a bad day. We talk a lot on here about the responsibility of those of us who conceal carry, and yet some of those same people will give just about ANY LEO a pass on improper behavior just because of the badge. My cousin (who is a THP officer) made the statement that bad cops are worse than criminals. They not only break the law, the break the publics trust. (He happens to be one officer I greatly admire.) I also have a good friend on the TBI who I have heard make very similar comments. I want to thank all of you good LEOs out there for you service. I am NOT anti LEO, I am very much anti BAD LEO, Power Tripping LEO, and the US against them LEO.

Yup, What he said! +1!!! I always start with a good attitude(and try to keep it at all costs), but even some of the time you get those "other" LEO's. Then I just shut-up, and pray.

Then after learning about the whole "all civilians are ____" attitude I kinda realized that it wasn't exactly about "helping people". Again, I'm not busting on LEO here, just speaking about the nature of the job from what I've seen.

The "us-vs-them" is what I saw a lot of, and that's what turned me off to it. I'm not sure there's a solution to that either.
It may be the nature of the 24/7/365 type job. (I still have to respect that! I couldn't do it!)

I was told (by several officers) if I want to be liked and help people to become a Fireman! So it's Search-and-Rescue work for me.

 

[KimKommando]

Laws vary from state to state and agencies have different policies, which if they can defend then in court, makes what they do legal. I do not agree with it, but I understand it. I think there have been too many officers killed on "routine" stops for them not to want to protect themselves. We all want to go home to our families at the end of the night. I have been in TX, FL, NC, VA, SC, AL, and have NEVER had an officer ask me to step out of the car on a infraction and disarm me. I informed the officer that I carry CCH and hand over my permit and license and that's that. Never had an issue. And I have been stopped by locals and troopers, alike.