Banned ammo early 1990's

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Quigley

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I remember a big todo back in the early 1990's a particular brand of pistol ammo was banned and pulled from shelves after being coined "Cop Killers"
I believe they were called Talon. I had a box of 45 ACP years ago and my memory is fuzzy but were they offered by several ammo makers or just Winchester and am I right with the name Talon?
 
Winchester Black Talons.

The same ammo (minus the black color) can now be had by getting the Winchester Ranger T. Many opine that the T stands for Talon. ;)
 
Black Talon is probably the one you were thinking of.
There was another, KTW, I believe. It was coated with teflon or something and penetrated vests.
 
There was another, KTW, I believe. It was coated with teflon or something and penetrated vests.
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KTW was covered by the armor piercing ammuntion restrictions passed in the '80s. It has a heavy metal (either tungsten or bronze) core which combined with the bullet design (coming to a sharp point if memory serves) provides its penetration capabilities. The teflon coating on AP rounds was designed to enable the heavy metal core to pass through the barrel easier and thus reduce the chamber pressure. The coating does not enhance penetration in any way, but only enables the weapon to shoot the round more efficiently.
 
Black Talon

Thats it guys thanks! It made by brain hurt, I just couldn't come up with it and it wasn't till I started typing the thread this morning that the Talon came to me.:)
 
Federal made some "Nyclads" back in the 90's.

I don't know if they are still made.
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Nyclads were never considered AP. As they are just nylon coated lead, they are exempt from the restrictions (which require a core made principally of metal other than lead).
 
why did Federal discontinue Ny-clads? they were great rounds; clean and accurate. Considering the "myth" of ballistic fingerprinting and all the hoopla attached to it, did hype or simple lack of sales seal the deal?...
 
The Black Talon was not banned.
Winchester quit selling it to American Citizens because they thought it might be banned, or just give them a bad image. They still make hollowpoints that will do the job. Some say the Ranger T is even better. Of course Winchester would rather sell that to government agents only, too; but some leaks out to Commoners.
 
The Black Talon was not banned.
Winchester quit selling it to American Citizens because they thought it might be banned, or just give them a bad image. They still make hollowpoints that will do the job. Some say the Ranger T is even better. Of course Winchester would rather sell that to government agents only, too; but some leaks out to Commoners.
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Correct, as most companies do it was CYA situation for them and they quit offering it to the public. They later returned with a better product that has a more PC name.

BTW - Winchester ranger is phenomenal ammo.
 
Black Talon

Thank the Lord that I still have quite a few boxes of BT in 45 and 9mm in my stash. I keep my CC guns loded with it. I heard that the Black in Black Talon also was considered a "racist" bullet.
 
Black talons were never banned. It's a media myth that they had anything to do with the so-called "cop killer" bullets. The "cop killer" bullets were solid projectiles designed in the earl 1980's by a little company FOR THE POLICE. The problem was that the .38 special RN loads were allegedly being deflected by modern auto glass. These were a way of overcoming that alleged problem by making a solid, harder projectile. Kind of a goofy idea, and it was made moot by the advent of the wondernines. Some antigun journalists got ahold of the story and claimed these were bullets that would cut through cop's vests. IIRC it was 60 minutes. You can do a search on line for the whole sordid story. Basically they lied about it, but Congress in its wisdom decided to ban the solid projectiles.

Black talons are not solids, but simply HP's with a moly coating on them. They were never banned, but in light of moves by the dipwads in Congress to do so, the maker decided to withdraw them and replace them with the same exact thing under a more PC name. SXT--get it? These days the Rangers are pretty darn close to the BT's, arguably better. The one thing I like about BT's is they made honking 180's for the .357 that are great for Anchorage carry. I've got some but want more.

SO there you go.

It was coated with teflon or something and penetrated vests.
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Grrrr. I never want to see a THR member repeat this myth again! It gets spouted off by journalists and in every other Sillywood film AND IT IS A COMPLETE TOTAL AND UTTER LIE!! Coatings on bullets are there to reduce residue on the barrel, esp. for high velocity rifle rounds and very expensive barrels. They do not make the bullet slip through a bullet proof vest. That is a function of velocity and sectional density.
 
yes, moly coat not teflon

Cosmoline is right, bs on the banning just anti's having something to latch onto. I still got a couple boxes in 45 acp. The black coating was just to help the large open face round slip into the bore easier, and to enhance appearance with the silver case. they do look cool and i would not like to be on the receiving end of one. the Winchester sxt is the "same exact thing" but it is just a copper jacket without coating.
 
Grrrr. I never want to see a THR member repeat this myth again! It gets spouted off by journalists and in every other Sillywood film AND IT IS A COMPLETE TOTAL AND UTTER LIE!! Coatings on bullets are there to reduce residue on the barrel, esp. for high velocity rifle rounds and very expensive barrels. They do not make the bullet slip through a bullet proof vest. That is a function of velocity and sectional density.
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Cosmoline, I've argued about that with a lot of people, many that should know better. One old guy, a friend of my Dad, was telling some others about how his little .22 auto loaded with "cop killer" bullets would get the job done. When I told 'em it's pure BS, they started muttering about young pups etc. Young pup hell, I've been shooting almost 60 yrs myself!!:D
 
No big loss as far as I'm concerned.
At least some of the Black-Talon wasn't all that good anyway.

The 230 grain .45 ACP stuff would barely expand reliably on a brick wall, let alone a felon.

Jacketed handgun bullet design & performance is WAY better now then it was then.

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rcmodel
 
It helps to know a bit more of the firearms-and-politics history of the early Nineties.

1. The broad-based assault on the 2nd Amendment was well under way.

2. AIDs (HIV had barely been identified) was a high-powered social fear in the US as well a medical disease.

3. Black Victimology ran high, and WM bias ran high in the liberal PC crowd.

These elements combined together to allow the media to push the antigun agenda. Political physician's groups promoted the particular 'deadliness' of the peeling-expanding bullet, and their concern of the 'razor sharp' petals of the expanding bullet making more likely injury during GSW surgery, and the subsequent liklihood of contacting AIDs.

The Jesse Jackson's of the world hopped on the victimology wagon, arguing that these bullets were not only intended to particularly injure the black population, but were so-named to encourage it. And, since the predominant stereotype of gun-owners was the OWM--hated for his part in the oppression of ANYone else save his peers--it made for a perfect storm.

The ammunition manufacturers didn't need that fight, so the Black Talon disappeared. Except for sales on e-bay, and in some of our ammo lockers.

Jim H.
 
Black Talons are still with us in the form of Ranger "Law Enforcement Only" ammunition. They're not black any more, and they're much improved, performance-wise. You can occasionally hook up with a box or two at gun shows.

Federal "Nyclad" was good ammunition, and I miss it a lot. Wish I'd socked a few hundred rounds of the .357 158-grain SWCHP away when I had the chance.

Federal bought the rights to manufacture Nyclad from Smith & Wesson in the 80s. I still have some of the S&W .38 Special 125-grain Nyclad stuff...but not enough to shoot or sell.
 
Black Talon is quite possibly the worlds most overrated handgun ammunition. When Texas DPS was first issued the Sig P220, they had several instances where the bullet did not perform as advertised, including one where an older FTO Troopers Sig P220 .45, loaded with Black Talons, failed to penetrate the cab door of a tractor/trailer, while his rookie, who was issued a Sig P226 in .357 Sig, loaded with Speer Gold Dots, shot through the cab door, killing the gun wielding truck driver.

I have to laugh at people who have big stockpiles of Black Talon and talk about how good it is, because there is much better ammo out there.

Just my .02,
LeonCarr
 
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Shooting of the truck door if true is just anecdotal since there are way to many variables that we do not know.

The fact remains the same, there is better performing ammo than the BT. Many people buy it as a collectible. Some still use it, even though it costs a lot of money. If they like it who am I to bash them.
 
Black Talons are still with us in the form of Ranger "Law Enforcement Only" ammunition. They're not black any more, and they're much improved, performance-wise...
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Don't remember where I read it (either Stopping Power or one o' Ayoob's books/articles), but I remember it being said that Black Talon penetrated too far before expansion, and as such really wasn't that good. The redesigned (and renamed) replacement supposedly expands more quickly.

'Course, I'm sure a lot of folks won't like the new ammo because of the name!
 
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