Bird-Shot as a Self-Defense Load?

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Personally, I would have no problem using T shot that I'd patterned at close range. It's just too easy to go get a few gallon jugs full of water, put 'em out at 7 yards, and verify my load will penetrate into at least the 3rd, but no further than the 5th, jug. That's what I personally am looking for in home defense penetration.

J
 
One question if you are shooting in a house, say down a hallway, does the shot column even have a chance to open up, I'd think at short across the room distances the shot may still be contained in the wad (birdshot) which should make for a heck of a knock down 1 1/4 oz of lead still bunched up?
 
See above re testing methodology: TRY IT.

Wouldn't be a bad idea to put a flannel shirt, bdu top, or light jacket over the water jugs, to see how a moderate cloth barrier will change penetration.

J
 
penetration in gelatin is more than in flesh

That's not true, JS. Ballistic gelatin is mixed to the ratio/density it is exactly for that purpose and it's calibrated to be as exactly like human flesh as possible on every shot. That's the point. If it weren't exactly like flesh, it would be pointless to shoot it and another formula of gelatin, being exactly like flesh, would be used.

According to the old FBI site, two inches of human fat tissue is equal to one half inch of ballistic gel....common two layer clothing is equal to less than one half inch of gel....human organ tissue is 1/3 as dense as gel/muscle etc etc etc. The gel itself is as close as it is possible to be to being human flesh. That means a 6" penetration in calibrated ballstic gel would be akin to closer to 12" in a human torso.

rich
 
At a typical 15 FEET inside a house your pattern is AT BEST a fist-sized scenario, remember that smaller pellets won't penetrate as deeply due to less individual mass
 
Rand, as you know, human tissue is not homogeneous, or: "oops! You left the bones out of my Jello." :D

Gelatin is calibrated by the depth of a BB fired at 590 fps, which should penetrate to approximately 8.5 cm.

Now, I have been shot numerous times with BBs over my lifetime (from a variety of platforms: Red Ryders, Daisys, Crossmans, Benjamins). They hurt. They may have even draw blood, on occasion. Not one has ever penetrated (what was then) my chubby childish body more than a slight bruise or a little blood, much less over 3". Wait, on me, that would be more like 7"...right? I mean, 590 fps is commonly achieved by bb guns. I rarely hear of deep bb penetrations. According to what you're saying, fatalities from bb guns should be common. Seeing as how squishy we humans are, compared to ordnance gelatin.

J
 
Did you read Lee's link? It took 3 CONTACT shots with #2

I believe you missed the point in that story, JS....and I'm sorry to have to say it, Lee, but I believe you're being a bit disingenuous in posting that story again.

Had the fellow loaded his gun with 00 buckshot, it would have left the exact same non-fatal damage. A slug the same way. Had he shot himself with a .44 mag carbine in the exact same way, he would have suffered the exact same damage. The ammo used was NOT the cause of the failure to succeed in his suicide attempt. Birdshot had nothing to do with it.

richard
 
Rand, as you know, human tissue is not homogeneous, or: "oops! You left the bones out of my Jello."

I completely agree....but as far as "flesh" goes, the gel is accurate.

According to the old FBI site, and I hope someone can repost that link because I'm two days after a bad reformat and a loss of all my favorites/links, the gel can be adjusted up and down. I had started to write that out but I can't recall all the entries so I edited it.

Two inches of human fat tissue is equal to one half inch of ballistic gel. Two layer clothing (shirt and jacket) is equal to less than a half inch. Organ tissue is 1/3 of muscle tissue. Upper body bone (sternum, vertabrae, skull etc) is something like 1.5 times as dense as muscle (not entirely sure on this one). Lower body bones are two for one muscle tissue etc.

An average, not heavily overweight male, shot in the center of his chest at say, ten feet, you would have one inch of gel representing his fat tissue and clothing, one inch of muscle is one inch of gel (two inches of gel penetration thus far with four inches remaining on a 6" penetration), his sternum/ribs would be approx 1 and 1/2" of gel (three and a half inches of gel penetration), and the last two and a half inches of gel penetration would represent 7 and 1/2" of heart, trachea, nerves, lungs, various organs.

That 6" penetration in ballistic gel, dead center mass, would pretty much have the pellets bouncing off his spinal column after having shreaded his heart/lungs etc.

Those 6" penetration shots aren't individual pellets as so many folks want to say, either. A #6 shot at ten feet leaves a hole approx 4" wide and the same deep before the pellets take up individual pathways. That shreads a heart. It's big enough to park a baseball inside of. As one fellow pointed out, (I wish I could find his name but my screen's all weird), and you often see it in those gel shots, the destroyed pathway is so wide and so deep that the plastic wad often penetrates as deep as the shot pellets.

richard
 
Well, Richard, *I* am not going to suggest using anything smaller than BB shot for S/HD, (hell, I'm a slug man) but in general, I think folks get too worked up on magic bullets, and concentrate not nearly enough on *hitting* the damn target. So we may not agree, but as long as your tactics are sound, and your rounds on target...keep rolling, brother.

John
 
The shot charge and wad entered the subcutaneous tissues at a low angle, travelled outside the rib cage, and exited on the left side of the chest.

RandKL said:
Had the fellow loaded his gun with 00 buckshot, it would have left the exact same non-fatal damage. A slug the same way. Had he shot himself with a .44 mag carbine in the exact same way, he would have suffered the exact same damage.

So all of those loads would have been ineffective?

Are you a hunter? Do wound channels vary from shot to shot? Is that a fair thing to say? Do all bullets behave the same?
 
for home defense i would use 00 Buckshot, but i rather use my AR15 it has less recoil . everyone has different choices but the shotty is cheaper for those on a budget then the pricey AR15's .

even a used AR15 cost more then 2 brand new shotguns.
 
So all of those loads would have been ineffective?

The point in that story, Floppy, was that the unfortunate fellow wasn't able to aim his weapon properly due to the length of the barrel and the distance of the trigger. It wasn't about his ammo.

If you shoot yourself with a 1oz load of #7.5 birdshot, a contact wound, that means the lead load is impacting and entering your flesh as a solid chunk still encased in the wad. Shooting through your jaw, it would still have been in the wad cup as it exited. A slug would have done the exact same thing. If he can't aim the birdshot, he can't aim the slug in the same barrel any better. If he had aimed a .44 mag carbine the exact same way, his shot would have followed the exact same path, not hitting anything that would kill him. You can think of it this way....which is going to be a more definite suicide shot if contact fired through the palm of your left hand, a load of birdshot, a slug, or a bullet? All three are just as ineffective if shot through the wrong place. He shot the wrong place.

Yes, I hunt. Not as much anymore since I have two bad knees, but yes, I hunt.

rich
 
I was acquainted with someone who tried to commit suicide with birdshot from an over-under.

Let's just say this: AT THE MUZZLE it lacks the effectiveness you need for defense. It DOES NOT MATTER that it doesn't have a chance to leave the wad.

Pattern, 15 feet, etc. be damned.

It messed him up, landed him in the ICU and paralyzed him through nerve damage, from all the pellets in his body over time. I'm not sure if he's now dead, but last I heard he'd lasted for months.

If you think birdshot is a viable self-defense load, I have one thing to say: GET REAL. It's not.

As others have said, gruesome it is, but a stopper it's not.
 
Well, Richard, *I* am not going to suggest using anything smaller than BB shot for S/HD.

Same here, John. I like #4 wax shots I load myself. I just wanted to point out that the argument is very seldom argued on an equal footing.

A few nights back, Lee Ermey shot some shotgun loads at raw turkeys. Did you catch that? He fired what he claimed was BB shot at a bird from HD range. I think it was 10-15 feet, but I don't tend to listen to those shows too closely. He then cut the bird open and declared the BB shot only penetrated "two inches". Now right off, 99% of the folks here in ths forum (maybe a bit less since you guys do tend to know your stuff) and all others will start quoting that as Gospel. The other 1%, myself included, will think "ummm, I shoot geese with #4 shot at 30-40 yards and get through and through hits". BB shot at ten feet....#4 shot at a hundred feet....? See my point? If BB shot only penetrated two inches at ten feet, we'd be goose-hunting with 00 buckshot. I've never seen that done.

Be safe!

Richard
 
If I were using bird shot I'd also be using a full choke.

Per my previous post IT DOESN'T MATTER what choke you use. WITH ZERO SPREAD it still isn't a defensive load.

In addition to the suicide attempt above, I can attest to something else.

A friend of mine and I were hunting, and missing faraway doves. Finally, a dove flew right in front of us and we both opened up on it with 7 1/2 shot from 12 Gauges, his choke a Full and mine a Modified, a direct simultaneous hit from both guns. We laughed because we thought there'd be nothing left. Indeed, there was nothing left -- of ONE SIDE of the bird. We still ate the other side. That's how much penetration it has. About an inch. Doesn't matter what the pattern density is.
 
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Per my previous post

Ummm, sure thing, AB. Maybe not to you. To others, it is.

I can remember a few years back, BB was the round carried by most cops and pretty much all prison guards and jailers.

rich
 
Maybe the turkeys weren't fully defrosted yet.

Oh yeah, from a lifetime of hunting doves, and getting "near" muzzle hits with a modified choke, if you can't eat the one side, you can't eat the other.
 
Woof! This again!? :)

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3_2.htm

I have seen this particular link posted more times than I can count. Pay attention to the summation.

Personally, I think certain birdshot loads would be fine for HD. But, given the choice , I prefer low recoil 00 Buck as a minimum for HD duty.
 
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Lee, but I believe you're being a bit disingenuous in posting that story again

Richard,

AT LEAST have the grace to quote me in full if you are going to quote at all. I ALSO SAID:

Peripheral hits with birdshot may well not be effective, even at contact distance. The thing is, if you do not get penetrating hits into important parts of the offender's anatomy, nothing is going to be very effective at stopping an attack. How well you hit is at least as important as what you shoot.

lpl
 
Maybe the turkeys weren't fully defrosted yet.

No real idea. The point was that someone supposedly as respected as Lee Ermey on a supposedly respectable tv show on a respected channel just tossed a load of bullsh*t in the viewers' faces. If you can't expect honesty and integrity from Lee Ermey and The History Channel, who can you expect it from?

richard
 
Richard,

AT LEAST have the grace to quote me in full if you are going to quote at all. I ALSO SAID:

Lee, I didn't quote *you* at all. Had I, I would have made sure to quote the parts in question. I questioned the veracity of that *story* being posted in this thread about buckshot vs birdshot, not what you wrote on the topic. What you wrote is straight forward and perfectly understandable....that story, however, is misleading when presented on this topic.

It doesn't take a whole heck of a lot of smarts to understand that *that story*, being posted in *this thread*, would/could be taken as evidence against the birdshot and not against the angle of firing. At least two people pointed out that exact wrong conclusion. Had I not clarified it, they would probably quote it later on as "proof".

r
 
A 12 ga load of #4 Buckshot is the equivalent of being hit with 27 rounds from a .22 (41 shots if you shoot 3" mags) (yes, I know the BC of a round ball is less than a .22 40 grain slug) at justifiable SD ranges (under 30 feet) it really makes no sense to use birdshot to save $5.95 for a box of 5 buckshot rounds. SD means you are in fear of your LIFE, shooting an intruder with a round which may only enrage him is unwise.

BTW shot disperses at roughly 1" per yard (a 10" pattern at 30 feet) a single layer of birdshot may not even penetrate a canvas coat, a layer of skin and 1-2 " of fat much less a breast bone!
IMHO use #4 buckshot for SD in an apartment, 00 buck for defense in your home, and slugs if you live in the country (no close neighbors).
 
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