One thing i don't get in all the drywall and geletan real testing that is done, it is always #7.5 or #8 birdshot. I personally never considered using such small pellets. Birdshot is anything smaller than #4 buckshot, correct? So why the assumptions of using about the smallest birdshot out there?
Bird-Shot as a Self-Defense Load?
- Thread starter TimM
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chuckusaret
member
I have seen the gel test of every shotgun shell load and it does not support the use of birdshot for HD. Most experts suggest the use of BB or the buckshot loads as a minimum. I have one HD shotgun loaded with a BB in the chamber and 7 000 bucks in the magazine. My seconded HD shotgun is loaded with a BB in the chamber and 7 slugs in the magazine. I have no worries about wall penetration, concrete exterior walls and plaster over 4" concrete block interior walls. Plus no kids, just me and my wife
RSVP2RIP
Member
T, TT, F, FF are considered buckshot I'm told. BBB on down is bird shot. T shot is .200"
BB may be technically birdshot, but it's not what anyone who hunts birds means when they say, "birdshot".
When I say, "Birdshot is totally inappropriate for self-defense" I'm referring to actual birdshot, used for bird hunting from pheasants on down, which is lead shot from size 4 to 9.
What you want to call BB, T, or whatever is up to you. I wouldn't call it "birdshot" or "buckshot". It's typically used for turkeys (class Aves but a very different style of hunting from "bird hunting"), coyotes and other farm/ranch varmints, prison rioters, etc. It's often found under "specialty loads" in a catalog or store.
I'm sure BB works fine for self-defense. Lead BB, anyway, not steel. That's not what I mean, or anyone else who hunts birds means, by "birdshot".
When I say, "Birdshot is totally inappropriate for self-defense" I'm referring to actual birdshot, used for bird hunting from pheasants on down, which is lead shot from size 4 to 9.
What you want to call BB, T, or whatever is up to you. I wouldn't call it "birdshot" or "buckshot". It's typically used for turkeys (class Aves but a very different style of hunting from "bird hunting"), coyotes and other farm/ranch varmints, prison rioters, etc. It's often found under "specialty loads" in a catalog or store.
I'm sure BB works fine for self-defense. Lead BB, anyway, not steel. That's not what I mean, or anyone else who hunts birds means, by "birdshot".
Marlin 45 carbine
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Cosmoline
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Join Date: December 29, 2002
Location: Los Anchorage
Posts: 15,839 Quote:
to put that #6 into the rear of a bg at about 20-30' while he's running away from the sight of those twin muzzles.
Then you'd get to spend the some years in prison. But this is indeed another reason why birdshoot is idiotic and has no legitimate place in self defense. You don't get to shoot people to punish them or pepper them with shot. It's both highly illegal and does NOTHING to keep the guy from turning and shooting you.
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not in this county and very likely not in this state. if the bg actually broke in or even attempted to then he's paid for.
just myself I would hate to put dirt in someones ears but if I saw a weapon of any sort would not hesitate to in a break in or arson attempt.
BTW I'm a combat veteran, 2 tours in 'Nam 2nd btln, 2nd amphib div.
Member
Join Date: December 29, 2002
Location: Los Anchorage
Posts: 15,839 Quote:
to put that #6 into the rear of a bg at about 20-30' while he's running away from the sight of those twin muzzles.
Then you'd get to spend the some years in prison. But this is indeed another reason why birdshoot is idiotic and has no legitimate place in self defense. You don't get to shoot people to punish them or pepper them with shot. It's both highly illegal and does NOTHING to keep the guy from turning and shooting you.
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not in this county and very likely not in this state. if the bg actually broke in or even attempted to then he's paid for.
just myself I would hate to put dirt in someones ears but if I saw a weapon of any sort would not hesitate to in a break in or arson attempt.
BTW I'm a combat veteran, 2 tours in 'Nam 2nd btln, 2nd amphib div.
And, in many states, it is a crime to deliberately shoot with the sole goal of inflicting pain instead of acting to prevent loss of life or prevention of a felony. It's called "shooting to maim", and it can be used against you, even in situations where you would have been fully justified in using lethal force.
J
J
Omaha-BeenGlockin
Member
Used to think birdshot would get the job done until recently---trying out my new 20ga with #6's shooting a rusty old barrel---and I mean rusty---at 15yds or so---all they did was bounce off. This barrel was already weakened by numerous .22 shots and used for burning trash.
I want something that penetrates---bird shot won't do.
I want something that penetrates---bird shot won't do.
Take a look at a skeet range house sometime. They get pelted often, with shot from 7 1/2 to 9 (and occasionally with someone's old duck loads).
Note that they often have little marks where they got hit. That's all. Marks.
Then ask if you'd use the same stuff for self-defense.
Again, I'm sure BB works fine. BB isn't what we mean by "birdshot."
Note that they often have little marks where they got hit. That's all. Marks.
Then ask if you'd use the same stuff for self-defense.
Again, I'm sure BB works fine. BB isn't what we mean by "birdshot."
That is a GREAT point, John! One I've argued myself blue in the face over more than once. While all states in the US include some form of deadly force for self protection law, there is NO law in the US that gives you the right to shoot to harm or "slow them down" or anything of the sort. It's shoot to kill or don't shoot at all. If you don't need to shoot to kill, you aren't legally able to shoot at all.
Great point, sir!
richard
ccsniper
member
I have #4 buck in my shotgun at the moment, but a speed loader of 00 buck on the stock
He's a vet who has long played on his vet status to, in effect, suggest that he *is* an expert. The show is presented as an accurate and fully realistic "historic record" of military and civilian weaponry. If your wife had presented herself as the same sort of expert and then bullsh*tted the topic, she would be wrong, too.
Lee Ermey and the History Channel present him and his show as definitive experts....the old "it's just a show with actors" excuse, lame in any regard, is too pathetic for even them to suggest.
richard
Cosmoline
Member
Then you must know that you cannot pepper the backside of a bad guy as punishment for breaking into your house. Firearms are not for dishing out justice no matter how tempting. So don't tempt yourself by loading a chamber with birdshot.
Leaky Waders
Member
I don't know why this silly argument keeps coming up...is there a gang of Doves invading peoples homes?
Why would one even want to use something like bird shot...for anything other than wingshooting anyways?
Is it really that cost effective... spend 150 dollars or more on a shotgun dedicated to homedefense...and then skimp on 5 dollars worth of dedicated ammo to keep it loaded with?
To me your basically saying...I bought this 7mm remington magnum rifle to go bear hunting...is it ok to reload it to .22 LR potential to take my quarry? It's silly.
I'd suggest calling your local police, ask what they load their shotguns with and mimic that. For the starbucks generation...that can interpretted as "Yo man in blue, what do you dudes load your shotties with to wack ninja's in my pad?"
Or...use 00 buck in your shotgun for homedefense and have a plan to call the authorities before you have to really use it.
PS If doves are invading homes, remember your license, limit and number of white winged doves that can be harvested per day.
Why would one even want to use something like bird shot...for anything other than wingshooting anyways?
Is it really that cost effective... spend 150 dollars or more on a shotgun dedicated to homedefense...and then skimp on 5 dollars worth of dedicated ammo to keep it loaded with?
To me your basically saying...I bought this 7mm remington magnum rifle to go bear hunting...is it ok to reload it to .22 LR potential to take my quarry? It's silly.
I'd suggest calling your local police, ask what they load their shotguns with and mimic that. For the starbucks generation...that can interpretted as "Yo man in blue, what do you dudes load your shotties with to wack ninja's in my pad?"
Or...use 00 buck in your shotgun for homedefense and have a plan to call the authorities before you have to really use it.
PS If doves are invading homes, remember your license, limit and number of white winged doves that can be harvested per day.
Pony Express
Member
my preferred HD/SD load is 1 1/8 oz. slugs. but thats just me.
birdshot is for birds
birdshot is for birds
Gryffydd
Member
Hey, at least in this thread nobody is suggesting the use of a 410 loaded with birdshot.
...FROM A PISTOL!
...yet.
50caliber123
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why do people use slugs for HD? I'm not knocking Pony Express asking this, but I thought the purpose of a shotgun was to shoot shot. I rely on pistol caliber carbines and rifles when a single, solid projectile is what I want to shoot. I can see a benefit to slugs at a distance, but modified choke with buffered shot inside 10yds is only a 4" pattern. That's out ofa 20 ga mind you
Actually, once upon a time, all shoulder-fired weapons were smoothbore. They were loaded with either shot or a slug, and sometimes, both.
Just as shotguns are today. There have been solid projectiles around for smoothbores even before there was shot.
People would use slugs for HD because
o They're more accurate
o They're less range-dependent
o With proper selection, they penetrate LESS than 00 buckshot at close range
o They're highly effective
Here's a question for you: why would you use a pistol caliber carbine when you have a more powerful option? If you've done your research, you know penetration from a PCC will exceed good ammunition from higher-velocity round, while being less effective. If you have multiple firearms, surely you can afford a decent pair of electronic ear muffs, so noise shouldn't be a factor, either. Why would you deliberately use a PCC?
John
Just as shotguns are today. There have been solid projectiles around for smoothbores even before there was shot.
People would use slugs for HD because
o They're more accurate
o They're less range-dependent
o With proper selection, they penetrate LESS than 00 buckshot at close range
o They're highly effective
Here's a question for you: why would you use a pistol caliber carbine when you have a more powerful option? If you've done your research, you know penetration from a PCC will exceed good ammunition from higher-velocity round, while being less effective. If you have multiple firearms, surely you can afford a decent pair of electronic ear muffs, so noise shouldn't be a factor, either. Why would you deliberately use a PCC?
John
I believe some were also loaded with random nasty shrapnel (generally for close-range use aboard ships, like blunderbusses).
Slugs aren't my choice, but still I wouldn't use a PCC for much, if anything. I can fire .45ACP from a much more compact platform, and yes, I can hit something with it at any HD range I will encounter.
Personally, I also don't buy into the "I'll have plenty of time to get dressed, put my tactical earmuffs and body armor on, and get my shotgun with a holstered sidearm for backup, then defend myself" school of thought regarding home defense. But I don't live on a compound, either.
That leads me to figure that a handgun offers easy availability in just about any location, and a shotgun offers devastating terminal performance. I'm not sure what other weapons I'd want to use, given a choice anyway.
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