BillinNH
Member
Bobo said:
Thanks, Bobo, for the clarification and for the great survey.
Bill
Bobo's pocket auto comparison chart
- Thread starter P95Carry
- Start date
- Status
Thanks, Bobo, for the clarification and for the great survey.
Bill
otomik
Member
please put the Kel-Tec PF-9 up on the big board as soon as is convenient.
http://www.kel-tec.com/pf9pr.htm
http://www.kel-tec.com/pf9pr.htm
sheep
Member
great chart
That's definitely something that needs to find it's way onto other gun forums. Now we just need a revised image that only contains the ones worth buying!
That's definitely something that needs to find it's way onto other gun forums. Now we just need a revised image that only contains the ones worth buying!
DaleJunior
Member
- Joined
- Aug 30, 2004
- Messages
- 39
on paper at least, it seems the pf-9 does not offer a significant enough size advantage over the p-11, particularly when p-11's can be fitted with 12 rnd mags. i guess time will tell.
Bobo
Member
DaleJunior said:
on paper at least, it seems the pf-9 does not offer a significant enough size advantage over the p-11, particularly when p-11's can be fitted with 12 rnd mags. i guess time will tell.
The P-11 is a double stack design, while the PF-9 is a single stack.
As far as size goes, the main difference is in the thickness (width).
This can be of considerable importance to many people for true pocket carry, and even IWB carry.
But as you said, "Time will tell".
on paper at least, it seems the pf-9 does not offer a significant enough size advantage over the p-11, particularly when p-11's can be fitted with 12 rnd mags. i guess time will tell.
The P-11 is a double stack design, while the PF-9 is a single stack.
As far as size goes, the main difference is in the thickness (width).
This can be of considerable importance to many people for true pocket carry, and even IWB carry.
But as you said, "Time will tell".
bubbygator
Member
From the Skyy forum:
That brings us to the new Skyy MPX-9
Length = 5.3 0.1 longer than Rohrbaugh
Height = 3.65 0.05 shorter than Rohrbaugh
Width = .80 0.11 narrower than Rohrbaugh - THIS IS MAJOR!!
Weight = 12oz 1.3 oz lighter than Rohrbaugh
........ only thing is - no pic available yet.
That brings us to the new Skyy MPX-9
Length = 5.3 0.1 longer than Rohrbaugh
Height = 3.65 0.05 shorter than Rohrbaugh
Width = .80 0.11 narrower than Rohrbaugh - THIS IS MAJOR!!
Weight = 12oz 1.3 oz lighter than Rohrbaugh
........ only thing is - no pic available yet.
Bobo
Member
bubbygator said,
That brings us to the new Skyy MPX-9
Length = 5.3 0.1 longer than Rohrbaugh
Height = 3.65 0.05 shorter than Rohrbaugh
Width = .80 0.11 narrower than Rohrbaugh - THIS IS MAJOR!!
Weight = 12oz 1.3 oz lighter than Rohrbaugh
........ only thing is - no pic available yet.
Those specs. sound very good.
If Skyy can pull it off, keep the price under $300, and its reliable I'll be amazed.
I'll believe it when I see it!
That brings us to the new Skyy MPX-9
Length = 5.3 0.1 longer than Rohrbaugh
Height = 3.65 0.05 shorter than Rohrbaugh
Width = .80 0.11 narrower than Rohrbaugh - THIS IS MAJOR!!
Weight = 12oz 1.3 oz lighter than Rohrbaugh
........ only thing is - no pic available yet.
Those specs. sound very good.
If Skyy can pull it off, keep the price under $300, and its reliable I'll be amazed.
I'll believe it when I see it!
woodswalker
Member
Triggers?
Have you researched the trigger weight and or the length of trigger pull? I personally carry the GLOCK 23. I prefer DAO but find the trigger pulls of some pocket guns to feel like they are 3 miles long (affecting accuracy
) Could you update the chart accordingly?
THX
Have you researched the trigger weight and or the length of trigger pull? I personally carry the GLOCK 23. I prefer DAO but find the trigger pulls of some pocket guns to feel like they are 3 miles long (affecting accuracy
) Could you update the chart accordingly?THX
Bobo
Member
woodswalker said,
Have you researched the trigger weight and or the length of trigger pull? I personally carry the GLOCK 23. I prefer DAO but find the trigger pulls of some pocket guns to feel like they are 3 miles long (affecting accuracy ) Could you update the chart accordingly?
No I haven't researched it, but if you (or anyone else) wants to do it for all the guns on the chart I'll be happy to add the additional information.
Just post it or PM me here.
Have you researched the trigger weight and or the length of trigger pull? I personally carry the GLOCK 23. I prefer DAO but find the trigger pulls of some pocket guns to feel like they are 3 miles long (affecting accuracy ) Could you update the chart accordingly?
No I haven't researched it, but if you (or anyone else) wants to do it for all the guns on the chart I'll be happy to add the additional information.
Just post it or PM me here.
ShootingEnthusiatist
Member
Great job
Great job putting the facts and figures together. I'm always interested in CCW weapons, dimensions, effectiveness, etc. Living in Florida it's hard to find the perfect year-round CCW (Glock 19 at the moment). It's nice to see them all together like that!
Great job putting the facts and figures together. I'm always interested in CCW weapons, dimensions, effectiveness, etc. Living in Florida it's hard to find the perfect year-round CCW (Glock 19 at the moment). It's nice to see them all together like that!
[email protected]
Member
nice work... thanks...
but... Walther PPK?
but... Walther PPK?
Bobo
Member
[email protected],
Thanks for the thanks.
What do you mean by:
"but... Walther PPK?"
I don't understand.
Thanks for the thanks.
What do you mean by:
"but... Walther PPK?"
I don't understand.
otomik
Member
i'm guessing his comments are something along the lines of...
poster: how about putting the PPK up there, because it's so cool
me: yes, but it's outside the parameters of the comparison chart (too big)
poster: but it's cool
me: yes it is, now before someone brings up the classic shortcomings of the PPK and gets into a heated debate, let's just agree it's a classy gun that doesn't quite fit into the "new generation of low-compromise pocket pistols" concept of the chart.
poster: how about putting the PPK up there, because it's so cool
me: yes, but it's outside the parameters of the comparison chart (too big)
poster: but it's cool
me: yes it is, now before someone brings up the classic shortcomings of the PPK and gets into a heated debate, let's just agree it's a classy gun that doesn't quite fit into the "new generation of low-compromise pocket pistols" concept of the chart.
Well, I've done this dance for awhile. In the People's Republic of California, soon to be the next state of Mexico, we are not allowed to carry most of these guns, or any guns, in about half the state. So, criteria for concealed carry is it has to be DEEP carry, and, when that's the case, weight becomes as important as size.
I have three in this category:
First, Beretta 950 Short. Inadequate caliber, but it goes bang, quickly, it's accurate, and reliable, and, smallest by far of the bunch, we can get here, no Kel-tecs allowed. The Beretta being DA/SA, in SA mode, has an EXCELLENT trigger, and for a point and shoot, that REALLY helps you hit your target.
Second: Kimber Ultra Carry II. After about 300 bucks extra, this is a gun I can conceal in a couple places, but, it requires hefty straps, since at 25 or so ounces, it's noticeably heavier then my other carry guns. It is the most accurate, so far, will shoot limited amounts of .45 Super, thanks to my fantastic gunsmith, and, 230 grain ball all day long. It's got an excellent, maybe 3 pound trigger, as well.
Third is your snubby, the 360PD, S&W. At it's super light weight, 12 oz, .357 magnum is out of the question. Extreme pain comes to mind.
After shooting a .475 Linebaugh, with 400 grain bullets, at 1300 fps, I put a Corbon full house 125 grain @ 1400 fps down range out of the little gun.
OUCH! I put the gun down, emptied the cylinder, and went back to shooting .38's. With Corbon's Plus P 125 grain HP, or their DPX line, you get nearly magnum velocity out of a .38 snub nose, around 1150 fps, with a 2 inch, and, it's easy to shoot. I think these guns need bobbed hammers, maybe, we shall see, filled in, wood grips, to give you something to hold onto, and an action trigger job to smooth out, and lighten the DA pull.
That, finally, is my complaint on most of these DA guns. Trigger pull means accuracy, and you don't want to end up like the miracle guy in Pulp Fiction,
splattered on the wall because your DA trigger pull made you pull all your shots off target, missing the bad guys.
That's my two 'sense' on the subject. Finally, my ideal gun for concealed carry is either a Detonics CombatMaster, which comes close to your specs, as the most compact of .45s, but, it's heavy. If you can use a holster, or shoulder rig, it's great. Shoot it all day, super accurate, and will take HEAVY loads, thanks to all stainless construction, for years.
Second would be bigger, the S&W 1911 SC commander size. It weighs the same as some of the guns you list, will be FAR more reliable then any, and, have a fantastic trigger pull, with all quality parts.
That said, I commend you on your size comparision, and, only can comment that a weight chart might be the next step.
Thanks Bobo
Sincerely
S
I have three in this category:
First, Beretta 950 Short. Inadequate caliber, but it goes bang, quickly, it's accurate, and reliable, and, smallest by far of the bunch, we can get here, no Kel-tecs allowed. The Beretta being DA/SA, in SA mode, has an EXCELLENT trigger, and for a point and shoot, that REALLY helps you hit your target.
Second: Kimber Ultra Carry II. After about 300 bucks extra, this is a gun I can conceal in a couple places, but, it requires hefty straps, since at 25 or so ounces, it's noticeably heavier then my other carry guns. It is the most accurate, so far, will shoot limited amounts of .45 Super, thanks to my fantastic gunsmith, and, 230 grain ball all day long. It's got an excellent, maybe 3 pound trigger, as well.
Third is your snubby, the 360PD, S&W. At it's super light weight, 12 oz, .357 magnum is out of the question. Extreme pain comes to mind.
After shooting a .475 Linebaugh, with 400 grain bullets, at 1300 fps, I put a Corbon full house 125 grain @ 1400 fps down range out of the little gun.
OUCH! I put the gun down, emptied the cylinder, and went back to shooting .38's. With Corbon's Plus P 125 grain HP, or their DPX line, you get nearly magnum velocity out of a .38 snub nose, around 1150 fps, with a 2 inch, and, it's easy to shoot. I think these guns need bobbed hammers, maybe, we shall see, filled in, wood grips, to give you something to hold onto, and an action trigger job to smooth out, and lighten the DA pull.
That, finally, is my complaint on most of these DA guns. Trigger pull means accuracy, and you don't want to end up like the miracle guy in Pulp Fiction,
splattered on the wall because your DA trigger pull made you pull all your shots off target, missing the bad guys.
That's my two 'sense' on the subject. Finally, my ideal gun for concealed carry is either a Detonics CombatMaster, which comes close to your specs, as the most compact of .45s, but, it's heavy. If you can use a holster, or shoulder rig, it's great. Shoot it all day, super accurate, and will take HEAVY loads, thanks to all stainless construction, for years.
Second would be bigger, the S&W 1911 SC commander size. It weighs the same as some of the guns you list, will be FAR more reliable then any, and, have a fantastic trigger pull, with all quality parts.
That said, I commend you on your size comparision, and, only can comment that a weight chart might be the next step.
Thanks Bobo
Sincerely
S
Bobo
Member
Socrates,
I feel for your pain. Things in CA are eroding quickly (in many ways). You might be better served to escape to a more supportive and less expensive place to live.
Thanks for the information on your personal choices of handguns considering your limited options.
What did you mean by, "a weight chart might be the next step"? Something in addition to the Empty and Fully Loaded weights that are now given?
I feel for your pain. Things in CA are eroding quickly (in many ways). You might be better served to escape to a more supportive and less expensive place to live.
Thanks for the information on your personal choices of handguns considering your limited options.
What did you mean by, "a weight chart might be the next step"? Something in addition to the Empty and Fully Loaded weights that are now given?
warmrain
Member
It would be interesting to see the baby Browning (or PSA-25) on there too.
Bobo
Member
warmrain,
I believe that the Baby Browning is not currently in production.
If I am wrong and you can point me to a picture of it that I can use and the all the necessary specifications I'll gladly add it.
I believe that the Baby Browning is not currently in production.
If I am wrong and you can point me to a picture of it that I can use and the all the necessary specifications I'll gladly add it.
warmrain
Member
It is currently in production by a licensed builder called Precision Small Arms. I own one of their PSA-25s and I can tell you that it is an absolutely perfect and faithfull reproduction. I have used their parts on true Le' bebe' a also fitted true Baby parts to the PSA.
In fact if it weren't for parts from PSA the real deal would not be a working example...
I also have a Bauer 25 that can be fitted with true Browning or PSA parts. I thing all the licenced copies are that close...
Checkout http://precisionsmallarms.com
It would be neat to see the PSA-25 covered with the other 25 mouseguns...
In fact if it weren't for parts from PSA the real deal would not be a working example...
I also have a Bauer 25 that can be fitted with true Browning or PSA parts. I thing all the licenced copies are that close...
Checkout http://precisionsmallarms.com
It would be neat to see the PSA-25 covered with the other 25 mouseguns...
warmrain
Member
From PSA's History page
Browning made a light weight version that was a Rolls Royce aircraft engine alloy frame and nickle plated slide. It had a gold plated trigger and is also currently in production by PSA as the Featherweight, it is just 7.25 ounces.
Weight: 275 grams (9.7ounces)
(light weight version 7.25 ounces)
Height: 72 mm (2.8 inches)
Length: 104mm (4.09 inches)
Barrel: 53.6 mm (2.1 inches)
Magazine Capacity: 6
Description from the PSA site:
Le Bébé is a single action, semi-automatic, self-loading, blow-back mechanism manufactured of all steel alloy components. It is striker fired and utilizes a smooth faced, single stage draw bar trigger with pull weight of 5.25 lbs. It can hold six rounds in its magazine and one chambered. Le Bébé's barrel is 2.13 inches long, has 6 lands and grooves and is right-hand twisted with a radius of 3.54 inches. Le Bébé is 4.11 inches long, stands 2.88 inches tall and is .88 inches thick. Depending on model, it weighs between 7.25 and 9.70 ounces, unloaded. Outfitted with a manual frame-mounted safety mechanism, magazine dis-connect device and cocking indicator, Le Bébé is produced in eight versions ranging from the well known "Traditional" to the highly coveted "Impériale".
Browning made a light weight version that was a Rolls Royce aircraft engine alloy frame and nickle plated slide. It had a gold plated trigger and is also currently in production by PSA as the Featherweight, it is just 7.25 ounces.
Weight: 275 grams (9.7ounces)
(light weight version 7.25 ounces)
Height: 72 mm (2.8 inches)
Length: 104mm (4.09 inches)
Barrel: 53.6 mm (2.1 inches)
Magazine Capacity: 6
Description from the PSA site:
Le Bébé is a single action, semi-automatic, self-loading, blow-back mechanism manufactured of all steel alloy components. It is striker fired and utilizes a smooth faced, single stage draw bar trigger with pull weight of 5.25 lbs. It can hold six rounds in its magazine and one chambered. Le Bébé's barrel is 2.13 inches long, has 6 lands and grooves and is right-hand twisted with a radius of 3.54 inches. Le Bébé is 4.11 inches long, stands 2.88 inches tall and is .88 inches thick. Depending on model, it weighs between 7.25 and 9.70 ounces, unloaded. Outfitted with a manual frame-mounted safety mechanism, magazine dis-connect device and cocking indicator, Le Bébé is produced in eight versions ranging from the well known "Traditional" to the highly coveted "Impériale".
Bobo
Member
warmrain,
Went to the site and bookmarked it. Very nice pistols for a reasonable price.
The Featherweight especially seems like it would be a great anytime/anywhere carry gun.
Unfortunately they only come in .25 - too small for the chart.
If I added the PSA .25's I'd have to add all the other .25's also -- don't want to go there. Too bad they don't make at least a .32.
Thanks for the info and your interest,
Bobo
Went to the site and bookmarked it. Very nice pistols for a reasonable price.
The Featherweight especially seems like it would be a great anytime/anywhere carry gun.
Unfortunately they only come in .25 - too small for the chart.
If I added the PSA .25's I'd have to add all the other .25's also -- don't want to go there. Too bad they don't make at least a .32.
Thanks for the info and your interest,
Bobo
warmrain
Member
I completely overlooked that you had limited the chart to > .25 caliber. Probably all you could do in order to keep it reasonable.
Are you the administrator or creator of www.mouseguns.com?
If you are associated with the site, how about adding a link to the PSA site? They have a nice product... I love mine.
Are you the administrator or creator of www.mouseguns.com?
If you are associated with the site, how about adding a link to the PSA site? They have a nice product... I love mine.
Bobo
Member
warmrain,
No I am not the owner/administrator of mouseguns.com. That would be "marshall" another member here on THR -- http://www.thehighroad.org./member.php?u=1136
He has been kindly and generously storing the chart and its ocassional updates on his server.
Bobo
No I am not the owner/administrator of mouseguns.com. That would be "marshall" another member here on THR -- http://www.thehighroad.org./member.php?u=1136
He has been kindly and generously storing the chart and its ocassional updates on his server.
Bobo
warmrain
Member
I missed it the first time, but I see there is a link to the PSA site on mouseguns.com.
Bobo
Member
Rabbi,
Thanks for the thanks, it's my pleasure!
Bobo
Thanks for the thanks, it's my pleasure!
Bobo
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