Boy, how quickly a handgun feels inadequate

[smhbbag1]

I appreciate those times where something I know to be true, but forget, is brought back to my mind.

I live in a decent apartment complex that has been overrun in the past year with not-so-decent people, including my direct neighbors. We're moving at the end of our lease.

I work night shift, and get home at 4:00AM every weekday. As I was getting home this morning, I turned a corner on our stairwell to find myself face-to-navel with a 6'10, 400+ lb. monster of a man. He was loitering outside an apartment whose primary occupants concern me a lot.

I was carrying 14+1 of .40S&W JHP's, with two reloads. And I felt it was a pea-shooter. To think about him kicking in my door, I would not feel guaranteed of a stop even with my 12ga. HD slugs and/or heavy buckshot.

*No, I cannot see every portion of the stairwell before going up it. If I had known he was there, I would have stayed in my car or gone to Waffle House instead of going home to bed. I'd rather inconvenience myself a lot and avoid a fight.

Lessons re-learned: Firearms are not magic death rays (except full-auto .50cal machine guns). I need to move or get a day job. Or both.

 

[MinnMooney]

I hear you about moving or getting a day job & those are two very good choices ......

but : A .40 S&W is 100 times better than being attacked by a gorilla and only having fists, feet and head-butts.

I applaud your non-mall ninja attitude about looking for better ways of dealing with this problem than to just say, "I've got bukoo ammo to blow him away if he dared to try anything against me.".

 

[Just One Shot]

Don't let his size fool you. He's still made of flesh and bone and I don't know anyone who could stand up to 15 rds. of .40 S&W.

 

[ccsniper]

what? You didn't try to poke him with a stick to see if he would get angry? I once had a guy get into my car and he was about 6'5 300lbs. he mistook my car for a friends and sat down then looked at me and his face got all red and surprised and all he said was "oops sorry" and got in the car right next to mine. I was carrying a 9mm with 115 +p and was simply thinking "all I am gonna do is make him angry before he eats me"

 

[CoRoMo]

No, they are not magical, but large and powerful humans are not immortal. The skill of the shooter is what can be defined as "deadly". There are well enough trained shooters who can effectively use five rounds of .38spl, and it doesn't matter how big and strong the attacker is, they're going down when they go up against those skills. Move away, get some training, continually refresh that training.

 

[Nushif]

On a similar note, the intimidating big guy may be an issue of intimidation, but frankly I've seen some very average looking people outmuscle some very big guys.

I was playing OpFor and got tackled by a 104 pound girl carrying a 70 pound ruck once. And I do mean a flying tackle. Personally, I wouldn't put it past her to take well over three rounds to truly *put down.*
the big gorillas are usually not the ones that scare me. It's the wiry little bastages that aren't breaking a sweat. Ever.

Just a little tidbit for some environmental awareness. 8)

 

[ccsniper]

Don't let his size fool you. He's still made of flesh and bone and I don't know anyone who could stand up to 15 rds. of .40 S&W.

how about 22 rounds, 17 being COM?

http://www.lawofficer.com/news-and-...ssionid=10BDC02F0CF4D0B083E43EA06A47B949pital

http://forum.pafoa.org/general-2/96018-shot-22-times-glock-40-a.html (recount of the story as original is missing)

 

[smhbbag1]

No, they are not magical, but large and powerful humans are not immortal. The skill of the shooter is what can be defined as "deadly". There are well enough trained shooters who can effectively use five rounds of .38spl, and it doesn't matter how big and strong the attacker is. Move away, get some training, continually refresh that training.

My thought was this: my vitals are a couple inches from the surface of my skin. His might be a foot from the surface of his skin.

With that much flesh, and suspiciously heavy clothing for summer in NC, I was instinctively thinking of it as if he were wearing body armor.

Even if that appears to be an exaggeration to some, it drove home the point to me that even perfectly placed shots with a substantial handgun caliber in center mass don't guarantee anything.

 

[Darkhorse]

Is there some reason to fear that you would miss his head?

I've hit moving squirrels with a 38 special from 10-15 feet away;
certainly his head would be bigger and slower than that.

Two shots at his nose should do it.

 

[RevolvingGarbage]

I agree with the idea that a handgun is far from a "magic death-ray", but I mean realistically, you didn't end up shooting that guy right? Who knows if all 6'10 400 pounds of him wouldn't have turned into a sobbing pile shaking in fear at the mere sight of your "pea shooter" .40 cal.

Its one thing to understand that you can't expect any gun to be instant relief in a defense situation, but to feel like the guy, because of his size and look alone wouldn't have even been phased should you have had occasion to defend yourself with your gun is fairly absurd.

 

[VegasAR15]

It doesn't necessarily matter how big the guy is. Google how a few weeks ago Roger Huerta(ex UFC fighter-lightweight 155 pounds) knocked out a guy twice his size in a street fight. Yes I realize we aren't all trained fighters. But aside from that, it doesn't matter how stong he is, no man can hold an ounce of lead in his chest.

 

[CoRoMo]

...my vitals are a couple inches from the surface of my skin. His might be a foot from the surface of his skin.

Nope, not all of them. Both his and your brain stems sit at about the same depth. This is why training will be the "deadly" variable. It can prepare you for any size, weight, strength, and even body armor. Stop thinking about the tool's abilities/inabilities within a finite hypothetical box.

 

[CWL]

Even 400lb people don't want to get shot.

 

[smhbbag1]

I have a feeling that those expressing a sentiment of "No problem. Hit his brain stem or get a good head shot" have never done live force-on-force training.

Close-quarters fights are frantic and full of jerky, unpredictable movement.

To answer the question - yes, there is a reason to fear I would miss his head. And it's not for lack of training, although we can all always use more. Yes, we can hit moving squirrels at 15 ft. Big deal. If that squirrel decided to run at you and gnaw on your neck, you would not be able to shoot him before he did so.

It is also not reliable to count on his desire not to get shot.

Yes, one shot may drop a guy that big or presenting it may make him run. The 'may' in that sentence is not comforting.

The gun exists to get me out of a fight for my life. That may happen by deterring the attacker in the first place, it may kill the guy, or it may just give me time to run.

It doesn't necessarily matter how big the guy is.

It does matter, especially when we're talking about a guy this size. Yes, size can be overcome and there are plenty of examples of that. But giving out those examples doesn't make it irrelevant. This guy has 3 times more body mass than an average thug. You can't just shrug that off.

 

[Eyesac]

My thought was this: my vitals are a couple inches from the surface of my skin. His might be a foot from the surface of his skin.

I hear ya, I work with a couple big guys and have often wondered the same thing. I'm probably only 8" wide from front to back and these guys are a foot and a half thick at the chest. Hope I never find out how effective/ineffective com shots are on a giant.

 

[RevolvingGarbage]

Continuing that line of thinking will get you nowhere. What if 14 rounds of .40 dont drop the guy? What if 20 rounds of 7.62 NATO don't do the trick? Suddenly this FAL is feeling a bit light in the hand! What if the M79 breakopen with HE grenades doesn't drop him?

What if the 120mm sabot round just punches a fist size hole clean through his body and he has enough life left to strangle you?

What holster for an A10 Warthog?



Have some confidence in what you've got, or else why carry it at all?

 

[mustang_steve]

If you've ever actually gotten into fisticuffs with someone that big, you'd realize the kind of advantage you really have. I've had the displeasure of being cornered by a fellow like this when I was younger...the particular fellow had forearms the size of my thighs if I remember right.

They have reach, power and overall mass (absorbs blows with minmal effect on their own inertia), but they are not as nimble, and if you're significantly smaller than them can practically run circles around them. That's the trick, flank and shoot. .40cal can take down a small bear with relative ease...and a small bear is going to be about as tough if not a bit tougher than the individual you've encountered.

Poeple get less involved in their fights than animals do.....instincts are that different.

 

[Magoo]

A fella that size that you suspected was maybe wearing body armor has me thinking bail bondsman/"bounty hunter". From what you described about your place/neighbors, it wouldn't be an unreasonable place to expect to run into one.

 

[Old Shooter]

So did you walk past him and go into your apartment? Did he do or say anthing inappropriate that made you concerned? Some big, mean looking people are, believe it or not, really not mean, they were just born looking that way.

You mention if you had seen him earlier you might have gone someplace to wait until he was gone. Do you live alone? Was no one else in the apartment you were coming home to? What if Big John was the lookout while all sorts of fun and games were taking place in your apartment?

If I could nod and walk past him, all fine and dandy. If he tried to block my way or other wise act belligerent it is time to either 1: back off and call 911 for assistance or 2: Pull the .40 and let the games begin.

But I agree, time to get the heck out of Dodge City and find a better place to live.

 

[ccsniper]

I have a feeling that those expressing a sentiment of "No problem. Hit his brain stem or get a good head shot" have never done live force-on-force training.

Close-quarters fights are frantic and full of jerky, unpredictable movement.

To answer the question - yes, there is a reason to fear I would miss his head. And it's not for lack of training, although we can all always use more. Yes, we can hit moving squirrels at 15 ft. Big deal. If that squirrel decided to run at you and gnaw on your neck, you would not be able to shoot him before he did so.

It is also not reliable to count on his desire not to get shot.

Yes, one shot may drop a guy that big or presenting it may make him run. The 'may' in that sentence is not comforting.

The gun exists to get me out of a fight for my life. That may happen by deterring the attacker in the first place, it may kill the guy, or it may just give me time to run.

Quote:
It doesn't necessarily matter how big the guy is.
It does matter, especially when we're talking about a guy this size. Yes, size can be overcome and there are plenty of examples of that. But giving out those examples doesn't make it irrelevant. This guy has 3 times more body mass than an average thug. You can't just shrug that off.

I commend you on not going all mall ninja/guns make BG's poop their pants . You are not thinking "well I have a gun, what could go wrong?" but rather you are thinking "I have a gun, what could go wrong". I don't really like what ifs but in this sense it is healthy and again I commend you on it.

 

[cassandrasdaddy]

I've hit moving squirrels with a 38 special from 10-15 feet away;
certainly his head would be bigger and slower than that.


were the squirrels trying to kill you? it adds to the equation

 

[EmGeeGeorge]

pelvic girdle, pelvic girdle, pelvic girdle.

 

[rhenriksen]

Reminds me of sparing w. a couple of 6th degree black belts @ my school. They're both built like oxes, have 30-40+ years of experience, LOVE to have a good fighter to bull up against (ie, I'm not one of the women/children/lightweights), and will come at me like a bulldozer.

Fortunately for me, their lateral mobility is really poor (bad knees, age, etc). I'm confident they could both punch through a door (or me), but as long as I don't go all 'deer in the headlights' I can sidestep their charges & circle around with impunity.


They have reach, power and overall mass (absorbs blows with minmal effect on their own inertia), but they are not as nimble, and if you're significantly smaller than them can practically run circles around them. That's the trick, flank and shoot. .40cal can take down a small bear with relative ease...and a small bear is going to be about as tough if not a bit tougher than the individual you've encountered.

 

[smhbbag1]

So did you walk past him and go into your apartment? Did he do or say anthing inappropriate that made you concerned? Some big, mean looking people are, believe it or not, really not mean, they were just born looking that way.

I nearly bumped into him coming around the corner of the staircase. I apologized, moved to the side, and continued to my apartment while keeping a not-so-subtle eye on him. He sure seemed to be sizing me up.

My best friend and best man at my wedding is built like that. Folks are often timid around him as well, even though he is a total pussycat. We call him the Jolly Black Giant. So I totally understand the desire not to treat people as dangerous just based on size.

He didn't say or do anything inappropriate to make me fear him, other than noticeably paying attention to me, also. But, if he is even an acquaintance of the people in the apartment he was loitering outside of, I don't trust him. He was also dressed in the stereotypical thug fashion, which didn't help his perception.

You mention if you had seen him earlier you might have gone someplace to wait until he was gone. Do you live alone? Was no one else in the apartment you were coming home to? What if Big John was the lookout while all sorts of fun and games were taking place in your apartment?

I thought about this as well. If I had seen him, walking by him increases the odds that something bad will happen to me or my wife or my apartment once he sees where I go. But, at the same time, what you say is also possible. I tend to fall on the thought that my wife has 2 loaded firearms within feet of her, that she is very confident with, and she is a light sleeper.

Everything within me is willing to protect her no matter what. If I see a guy hanging around outside/near our door, the calculus changes. But if the shady folks are around the apartments nearby, observation/caution becomes the order of the day.

If I could nod and walk past him, all fine and dandy. If he tried to block my way or other wise act belligerent it is time to either 1: back off and call 911 for assistance or 2: Pull the .40 and let the games begin.

Yep.

 

[Candyman]

14+1 round of .40 S&W may very well not be enough. On the other hand, one may be plenty. You never know. There are no guarantees.

I was walking my dog one morning when we were approached aggressively by a large Rottweiler. I drew my weapon and all I could think was I wish I had my .45 (was carrying a 9mm at the time). The dog stopped about 15-20 ft. from us and all ended well. When I got home and was telling my wife what happened and how inadequate I felt with the little Kimber she asked me how I would have felt without it.

A confrontation is going to be scary. You are probably going to feel under-gunned. Keep your skills sharp and the gun will do what you make it do.
Adequately.