Budget home defense rifle

[mr.trooper]

There is nothing you can use that WONT penetrate three apartments over. NONE.

A .22LR with a 4" barrel will zip through multiple interior walls.

In the BOT tests, a 2.5" barrel P32 (32acp) penetrated a metal clad exterior door, AND two layers of sheet rock, and still kept zipping along.

Strait up fact is the only thing that has low enough mass NOT to penetrate your apartment walls is low brass bird shot, and even that may still penetrate at close rage if the shot column is not dispersed.

The ONLY way you can avoid putting your neighbors at risk, and putting yourself at risk with undue liability, is to use a less-lethal alternative like a Taser, or a 37mm gas gun with low energy rubber / wood projectiles. There are chemical agents as well (CN / OC), but this will contaminate a significant area.

That is the only way you are going to get a projectile weapon that is even remotely low in civil / emotional liability. There is nothing else, beyond blasting away and praying there are no innocents in the path of your bullets.

A shotgun is NOT the answer to everything, nor is lethal force - no matter how good it makes us feel to pound our chest from behind a keyboard.

 

[LeonCarr]

"Given the choice, I'll take a rifle every damn time"

Being this is a home defense thread, I'll take a shotgun every damn time.

At household ranges I can put multiple hits on a bad guy faster with a shotgun than I can with a rifle or submachine gun, even on full auto, and do it more accurately.

My point in my previous thread was not about marksmanship...every firearm requires the fundamentals of marksmanship.

Speaking of rifles, can you even possess a rifle in "The District"?

Just my .02,
LeonCarr

 

[JShirley]

While off-topic, I am technically in MD. And I can address multiple targets much faster, with less liability, with an AR15 than a 12 gauge, as can any other person in existence. Carbines are faster. Testable, proven fact

 

[jim243]

While I like the shot gun idea the AR-15 would do as well, but I will just have to use a 45 ACP to insure I don't hit my buddy



While she's taking chunk's out of a burglar's body parts. (LOL) Have to protect my personal property. (LOL)

Talk about a bad day at Black Rock.

Jim

 

[AKElroy]

There is nothing you can use that WONT penetrate three apartments over. NONE

Actually, I'm not sure this is the case. I know first hand that a hot corbon 135 gr .40 S& W will penetrate exactly one cheap plaster lamp, and not quite one sheet of drywall behind it. John is correct about light, hot loads being a good choice to limit OP.

 

[General Geoff]

Kel-Tec Su-16 is a .223 autoloading rifle that takes standard AR magazines, and can be had, with some patience, for under $500.

 

[back40]

jim243 touched on a good point. a dog is an excellent tool in and of itself. alert, alarm and protect. mine certainly won't let anyone in the door without being inspected and has a keen sense for when something "isn't right". something to consider when thinking about the big picture of home defense.

the 5.56 carbine is a great idea and would be my first recommendation if the cost were not prohibitive. aside from that, i stand by the 20 gauge.

[/URL][/IMG]

 

[JShirley]

To the OP: if your friend has the time to take care of one, and can have one where she lives, a large dog might be a first "purchase"- check the animal shelters for a dog that will repay you every day until they stop breathing.

John

 

[LeonCarr]

Nice GSDs jim243 and back40.

One thing I have learned though the years is there are only two things that criminals are really and truly afraid of...Average Joe/Average Jane law abiding citizens with guns, and large dogs.

Just my .02,
LeonCarr

 

[Warp]

While off-topic, I am technically in MD. And I can address multiple targets much faster, with less liability, with an AR15 than a 12 gauge, as can any other person in existence. Carbines are faster. Testable, proven fact

That they are.

BIG +1 to a large dog.

 

[LeonCarr]

Can a carbine put 9 or more holes in a target with one pull of the trigger?

Unless it is full auto, it cannot. Inside a home, it is faster than a shotgun?

I say no. I also say a carbine, even on full auto, at household ranges with shoot a 9 shot burst pattern larger and with less accuracy than one round of 00 Buckshot. A carbine on semi auto with shoot a tighter 9 round burst, but will take about 4-5 seconds longer than the single pull of shotgun loaded with 00 Buckshot. 4-5 seconds is an eternity in a gunfight.

At household ranges, the shotgun is faster and more accurate.

Just my .02,
LeonCarr

 

[Warp]

9 rounds of 5.56/.223 >>> 9 pellets of 00 buck, so I'm not sure why you are pushing that comparison so hard.

 

[LeonCarr]

What makes the shotgun superior at CQB ranges is the 9 pellets are hitting the body at the same time, increasing shock and leak points to more rapidly incapacitate the threat. Also, at CQB ranges with the .223/5.56 you have 9 .224 diameter 55/62 grain bullets striking the target, and the trigger has to be pulled nine times. With the 12 Gauge 00 Buckshot you have 9 .33 caliber pellets, the plastic/nylon buffer material, the shotcup/plastic wad or fiber wads, and at very close range unburned powder entering the body with each pull of the trigger.

Just my .02,
LeonCarr

 

[History.Doc]

You can pick up a used stoeger o/u 20 gauge for under $300, load it with turkey shot and be pretty darn well protected in an apartment.

I was thinking along these same lines.

 

[peacemaker45]

A shotgun isn't the best thing since sliced bread, but it is the best thing that isn't a thousand dollars over budget. The OP either stated or implied, I do not now recall which, that his friend had about three hundred dollars to spend on this.

I may be reading too much of my own experience into the OP's friend's situation, but when I was 19, living in the kind of crummy apartment that makes people want to buy guns in the first place, it would have taken six months or better to save up an extra thousand bucks.

It's a popular mantra around here to preach buying the best one can afford. John Shirley and others certainly make an excellent case for a quality AR being one of the best choices. Its capacity is such that one need not fear running it dry in any reasonable home defense scenario, and box magazines are easy to change in case of an unreasonable one. The .223 with proper bullets is a very good anti personnel choice. Above all, with its good ergonomics and low recoil, the AR is probably the easiest to shoot serious fighting weapon yet invented.

But: (and this is a pretty serious but) if the OP's friend has to scrimp and save for six months to buy one, that's six months she's exposed, unarmed. The greatest fighting rifle extant won't do any good if it's still in the display rack down at the store when she needs it.

That's why I, at least, suggested the 12 gauge pump shotgun. It has certain drawbacks, to be sure. It recoils. It doesn't hold very many rounds. It is considerably more complex to single load shells into a tubular magazine than to change a box.

However, those failings can be ameliorated without undue expense, and only a little trouble. With a saw, hacksaw, screwdriver, $30 recoil pad, and $50 mag tube extension, any one of the numerous Mossberg or Remington field guns haunting the pawn shops and used gun racks with $200 price tags hanging on them can be transformed into a well fitted, pleasant to shoot, easy to handle, increased capacity defensive weapon this week.

It may not be the perfect choice, but it's a darn good one, and a good choice now beats the perfect one in six months, in this case.

Sent from my C771 using Tapatalk 2

 

[peacemaker45]

Leon: I think you may be missing the point that high velocity rifle rounds possess secondary wounding effects far different from those of low velocity handgun and shotgun projectiles. It's apples to oranges, not a simple case of counting and measuring the holes.

Sent from my C771 using Tapatalk 2

 

[JShirley]

Mr. Carr,

I was attached to two different ODA teams during my first deployment. I saw raid prep. What did these super operators, who could use just about whatever they wanted, use? Were they holding 12 gauge shotguns when they raided? No. They used short-barreled M4s with Eotech sights. They did have a nifty little 12 ga they brought, too- for breaching.

A .223 works just fine to stop threats, and expanding rounds work even better. Most true pros don't use 12 gauge, they use a carbine. Shotguns are cheap and easy to find. Sure, they can work, but they take much more practice to use well, are less accurate, and are liability risks due to both multiple projectiles and overpenetration of the most common social load.

I'm done here.

John

 

[Warp]

What makes the shotgun superior at CQB ranges is the 9 pellets are hitting the body at the same time, increasing shock and leak points to more rapidly incapacitate the threat. Also, at CQB ranges with the .223/5.56 you have 9 .224 diameter 55/62 grain bullets striking the target, and the trigger has to be pulled nine times. With the 12 Gauge 00 Buckshot you have 9 .33 caliber pellets, the plastic/nylon buffer material, the shotcup/plastic wad or fiber wads, and at very close range unburned powder entering the body with each pull of the trigger.

Just my .02,
LeonCarr

Properly selected 5.56/.223 projectiels do NOT make .224 holes in the target.

 

[Jim Watson]

I see the pros wearing helmets, too.
Any shot fired indoors will be painful. A rifle will be excruciating. One gunfighting coach recommended hanging hearing protectors next to one's home defense gun.

The pump shotgun was the choice of the police before the modern militarization trend because it is cheap and powerful. Great. It is as much a skill weapon as any serious weapon. You have to learn to pump it reflexively. You have to learn to bear up against the recoil. You have to learn to aim. A shotgun at home defense ranges is an aimed weapon, not a blunderbuss.
As said, a Remington Youth or Mossberg Bantam would be a good choice in that category.

I like the concept of a pistol caliber carbine. Is the HiPoint reliable enough to go to war with? Some say it is. A pistol caliber lever action is effective but a good one is not cheap.

An AR, AK, SKS, .30-30? OK, but keep those ear muffs nearby.

The only common factor is skill. If she will learn the ins and outs, anything can be made to work. If she won't, nothing will.

Me?
At that stage in my life a Marlin 39a .22 lever action was my pad defense weapon. It was what I had.

 

[jack44]

12ga. 00 buck.

 

[PAULREVERE]

I can only relate personal experience on this matter. When I was 16, my neighbor was shot by swat team members in his front yard when he came out after them with a large knife. He was shot in the abdomen at a distance of approx 5 yards. He went down immediately. He lived after emergency surgery. The 00 buck DID NOT pass thru. Wifes uncle shot his best friend on accident at point blank range with bird shot in the stomach many years ago rabbit hunting. He bleed out and died. I shot a doe with a 12 gauge Rem slugger at 30 yards 2 years ago. Full pass thru. Shot a buck last year at 80 yards with a Remington buckhammer. Full pass thru. No way would I use a 12 slug for home defense. IMO, low recoil 00 buck,#1 or #4 buck, or a 9mm carbine is about perfect. No exp. with a .223, but no way in my neighborhood would I use my AKM in 7.62x39. Way to much penetration.Your mileage may vary.

 

[back40]

9 rounds of 5.56 vs. 1 shell of 00 buck = absolutely silly comparison.

 

[bigdogpete]

How about a youth model 20 ga. You can use 3 in. if you need for power. Your lady friend will be able to maneuver a youth model very easily.

They are under $300 new.

 

[Panzercat]

nevermind. It was so ridiculous its not even worth commenting on.
/redacted

Knowing the person using it,

Pistol caliber levergun
Shotgun under 12g
Highpoint Carbine (only because they are dead to rights reliable even with the mechanical complexity inherant with magazine feed)

I would generally avoid rifle rounds, including .223/5.56. Aside from mechanism complexity, your ears will thank me.

 

[Edarnold]

Another factor is the OP's friend in an apartment: I lived in urban apartments for over twenty years, and word gets around. If the neighbors know she has a shotgun, no big deal. If the neighbors, and their friends and relatives, etc. know she has an AR15, she becomes a target for any gangsta-wannabe who can score a thousand-dollar piece just by breaking in while she's not home.
Just another one of those little gotchas that people don't consider...