MattShlock
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Budget home defense rifle
- Thread starter monotonous_iterancy
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I agree that with a trained individual, a follow-on shot will be faster with a slide-action. This is provable fact, regardless of my mileage.
That doesn't change the fact that any pump has a more complicated manual of arms, and malfunctions under stress like short-stroking are common by even fairly skilled operators. Pumps are also more expensive.
An affordable, understandable, reliable firearm the buyer practices with is better than the "perfect" HD weapon that never gets shot because its use seems complicated.
John
That doesn't change the fact that any pump has a more complicated manual of arms, and malfunctions under stress like short-stroking are common by even fairly skilled operators. Pumps are also more expensive.
An affordable, understandable, reliable firearm the buyer practices with is better than the "perfect" HD weapon that never gets shot because its use seems complicated.
John
i can't argue with that. my thinking is along the lines of... in a stressful and chaotic situation the slower reload of a single shot and the possible fumbling of the reload are of greater concern than shortstroking a pump. i've never considered the pump action or it's moa to be complicated.
Roadking Rider
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Your talking apartment than more than likely talking close by neighbors on the other side of the apartments walls. I say go with a 20 ga. Mossberg cruiser load it with a shot you can comfortably handle . No it might not drop them dead in one shot but it will sure make them think this might have not been such a great idea. Remember it's not always about killing anyone, it about stopping the threat aimed towards you. Killing another human being doesn't mean it's all over, in many ways it's actually just the beginning of the rest of your life..
I'm basically going with this. I think taking too long fumbling the reload is more worrisome than short stroking the pump. A little bit of practice, which can even be done at home (dummy rounds if you like), and the instruction to pull all the way back until a hard stop, then go forward all the way to a hard stop...should be pretty reliable.
I'd be more worried about the manual safety's position/manipulation.
I don't know the individual in question. She may pick up mechanical concepts quickly, or not. If she does, "pumps" may come easily and naturally to her. If she's not very mechanical, they may be confusing and daunting. This is my concern.
I would be a lot more concerned about a good first shot than anything else. If the user is too intimidated by their firearm, they won't practice, and won't get a good first shot- and the first shot is obviously going to be the most important one.
Again, this is why shooting with a few types of weapons BEFORE purchasing one is such a good idea.
Regardless, pistol-grip-only shotguns are special use, and the only worse home defense firearm for a new shooter would be a muzzle loader.
John
I would be a lot more concerned about a good first shot than anything else. If the user is too intimidated by their firearm, they won't practice, and won't get a good first shot- and the first shot is obviously going to be the most important one.
Again, this is why shooting with a few types of weapons BEFORE purchasing one is such a good idea.
Regardless, pistol-grip-only shotguns are special use, and the only worse home defense firearm for a new shooter would be a muzzle loader.
John
i wasn't advocating for a pistol grip only shotgun, as i agree they have very limited use and certainly are a poor choice for people of smaller stature.
my recommendation is simply for a 20 guage pump (full stocked), of which a few models can be had at very reasonable prices.
however, if the user isn't comfortable with the action or platform, then by all means, choose a different path. one can learn to be proficient with just about anything given a good amount of correct training, though there is something to be said of platforms that simply 'come natural' to a user.
my recommendation is simply for a 20 guage pump (full stocked), of which a few models can be had at very reasonable prices.
however, if the user isn't comfortable with the action or platform, then by all means, choose a different path. one can learn to be proficient with just about anything given a good amount of correct training, though there is something to be said of platforms that simply 'come natural' to a user.
Sorry, someone else suggested the Mossberg Cruiser. I thought PGO shotguns should be decisively addressed. 
20 ga slide action is certainly a potentially effective HD gun.
John
20 ga slide action is certainly a potentially effective HD gun.
John
HorseSoldier
Member
The friend's willingness and ability to run a gun is going to be crucial. I'd vote for a (used) 870 or 500 pump gun, which should be in the budget, but that again depends on willigness to learn how to run the gun.
LeonCarr
Member
With the current trend of home invasions, flash mobs, and other shenanigans involving multiple assailants committing crime, I will recommend something with a magazine over anything single shot or double barreled. Also, a trained individual can single load/emergency load an empty pump or auto just as fast or faster than someone can reload a single shot, so why not have more rounds on tap in the magazine so you hopefully won't have to reload?
Just my .02,
LeonCarr
Just my .02,
LeonCarr
LeonCarr
Member
Everybody who owns a firearm or firearms should be a *trained individual*.
A firearm that might be used to defend your life or the life or your loved ones needs to be shot and trained with...often.
Whichever firearm the OP's friend decides to choose, I hope training is part of the investment. It will do you no good whatsoever if it stays under a bed or in a nightstand and never gets shot.
Just my .02,
LeonCarr
A firearm that might be used to defend your life or the life or your loved ones needs to be shot and trained with...often.
Whichever firearm the OP's friend decides to choose, I hope training is part of the investment. It will do you no good whatsoever if it stays under a bed or in a nightstand and never gets shot.
Just my .02,
LeonCarr
wgaynor
Member
Could go for a .410. Lighter recoil. effective
As for penetrating drywall in a house, if it penetrates a human, it will penetrate dry wall. I'd focus more on training.
As for penetrating drywall in a house, if it penetrates a human, it will penetrate dry wall. I'd focus more on training.
.410s are only better than .22LRs. Even a semi .22 Magnum would be better. Many states don't allow .410 on "big game", which can include hogs and deer-sized game. That alone should tell you enough about its (lack of) efficacy.
Yes, anything that will penetrate at least 6" of human will penetrate some drywall, but some calibers (including 9x19mm) tend to penetrate a lot more drywall than some other calibers (like .223). This is one of several reasons why most SWAT units have gone to carbines instead of submachine guns.
John
Yes, anything that will penetrate at least 6" of human will penetrate some drywall, but some calibers (including 9x19mm) tend to penetrate a lot more drywall than some other calibers (like .223). This is one of several reasons why most SWAT units have gone to carbines instead of submachine guns.
John
oneounceload
member
An easy to use 30-30 lever action would work nicely, the same in 38/357 is another possibility - inexpensive (especially used) and ammo for the 30-30 is readily available, unlike 223, 9mm, 40, or 45
allaroundhunter
Member
I see John's points on reasons to use the single shot, and while mechanically it is harder to mess up, grabbing a shell to reload a single shot while under duress and trying to load it will lead to more problems than a pump gun (IME). I started off with a single shot, and I was not allowed to move up to a pump gun until I could fire 6 shots as fast as someone with a 2+1 pump.
It took a good bit of practice, but I got there. The problem that always caught me was grabbing a mothers he'll and trying to insert it quickly (and I wasn't even in a life or death situation).
The other bad thing about single shots is that they recoil more than a pump gun. My 20 ga single shot kicked more than any other shotgun that I have shot, short of slugs and 3.5" turkey loads.
If she wants a shotgun, a 20 ga pump is probably her best option. Take her out shooting clays a couple times a month with it and the chances of her short stroking the gun will rapidly decline.
leadcounsel
member
Everyone can save a few bucks with different spending habits. "Buy once, cry once" so they say.
I agree, either a 20 ga. or a 12 ga. with light recoil buckshot. NOT birdshot.
Or a Hipoint 9x19 will do the job.
SKS is also a good and easy to use gun, but over her $300 budget.
I agree, either a 20 ga. or a 12 ga. with light recoil buckshot. NOT birdshot.
Or a Hipoint 9x19 will do the job.
SKS is also a good and easy to use gun, but over her $300 budget.
AKElroy
Member
Rather than continuing the single shot vs pump battle, lets run with a cheap side by side or o/u. For all of the concerns listed, I do have a Rossi coach for the wife short lop, exposed hammers, double triggers, nothing could be simpler.
Edarnold
Member
An unpleasant scenario for those who insist on nothing smaller than OO Buck for HD:
Hostile Prosecutor: "Defendant, just why did you choose to shoot the innocent unarmed minority teenager with OO Buckshot?"
Defendant: "Well, that's the smallest size shot that will definitely penetrate far enough to destroy the major organs and kill the target!"
Prosecutor: "Oh, thank you SO much! That is all I need from this witness!"
Stopping an attacker is not the same as killing them dead, Dead, DEAD. Having a couple of square inches of your body turned into bloody hamburger is most likely to discourage anyone from continuing an attack. If it doesn't, there is always the head-shot option, which again does not require a foot of penetration to be effective.
In justifying the use of a firearm in self-defense, it is to your advantage to not kill your attacker. As a civilian, you can't appeal to the FBI ballistic guidelines as justification for using what a hostile prosecutor may characterize as excessive force.
Hostile Prosecutor: "Defendant, just why did you choose to shoot the innocent unarmed minority teenager with OO Buckshot?"
Defendant: "Well, that's the smallest size shot that will definitely penetrate far enough to destroy the major organs and kill the target!"
Prosecutor: "Oh, thank you SO much! That is all I need from this witness!"
Stopping an attacker is not the same as killing them dead, Dead, DEAD. Having a couple of square inches of your body turned into bloody hamburger is most likely to discourage anyone from continuing an attack. If it doesn't, there is always the head-shot option, which again does not require a foot of penetration to be effective.
In justifying the use of a firearm in self-defense, it is to your advantage to not kill your attacker. As a civilian, you can't appeal to the FBI ballistic guidelines as justification for using what a hostile prosecutor may characterize as excessive force.
Shadow Warrior
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- Jul 15, 2013
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- 1
Shadow Warrior
I was a believer in rifles until one of my neighbor's shot a 30-06 at a burglar and missed him. The bullet went through my neighbor's wall and the next door neighbor's walls. All in all this bullet penetrated studs, siding and insulation on (2) homes! I thought of a .22 lr but again this is a tiny bullet that has a reputation for traveling past (300) yards! WOW!
I recently put my anxiety to ease and purchased a Benelli M4. I like it and I use # 4 buck. This is a .24 caliber in diameter. Anyone getting hit with one while breaking in will certainly NOT have a good day. Also, it is not as punishing on your shoulder.
Good luck with your search. Please, stay away from long arms unless you plan on hunting with it. The shotgun is a GREAT versatile tool and will not cost much.
I was a believer in rifles until one of my neighbor's shot a 30-06 at a burglar and missed him. The bullet went through my neighbor's wall and the next door neighbor's walls. All in all this bullet penetrated studs, siding and insulation on (2) homes! I thought of a .22 lr but again this is a tiny bullet that has a reputation for traveling past (300) yards! WOW!
I recently put my anxiety to ease and purchased a Benelli M4. I like it and I use # 4 buck. This is a .24 caliber in diameter. Anyone getting hit with one while breaking in will certainly NOT have a good day. Also, it is not as punishing on your shoulder.
Good luck with your search. Please, stay away from long arms unless you plan on hunting with it. The shotgun is a GREAT versatile tool and will not cost much.
Honestly, I'm thinking we're running the fine line of assuming we have to dumb this down too much here. The difference between cracking open a shotty to apply a round in an emergency situation and producing a levering action to chamber a round is pretty minimal unless you decide that this home defense firearm needs to be unloaded at all times (really?) at which point you add pushing a round into the sidegate. Or a similar action in a pump action shotgun.
Sure, there's little that can go wrong with a break action shotgun... But lets not make it out to be without its own drawbacks, such as what you're going to be doing a 3am when you drop the hammer on a dud. As a minimum, a double barrel is advised so at least you have redundancy. But is a pre-loaded lever so horribly complex to disqualify it in this case? Or a pump Shotty? My wife, who is neither a firearms enthusiest or could care less can operate both. Its not rocket science, even at 3am in the morning.
Not that I don't think a break action shotty can't provide adequate defense, just that the simplicity justification is a bit overblown. That said, I seem to remember suggesting the very same thing a year back here and getting crucified for it. Not enough gun and such. Irony = Savored.
On a side note, Hipoint carbines aren't exactly light. Good HD medicine, but in this case I'm no so sure. Add in the magazine complexities (Load the mag to load the gun to chamber the gun to fire the gun) and i'm not a huge fan in less than experience hands.
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denton
Member
I don't know.... this may start a flame war... but what the heck?
If you choose a shotgun, it really does not make much difference what type of shot you have loaded at across-the-room distances. The shot does not spread much, and will be devastatingly effective. Few people survive being shot with a shotgun at close range. A good pheasant load is a very effective home defense load (up to ~7 yards). Now if your target is 30 yards out, it matters a lot what you shoot. At that range 00 buck performs very well. Birdshot, not so much.
I'd steer clear of anything with too short a barrel. We had a little Rossi 20 ga./.22 switch barrel job. Nobody would shoot the shotgun a second time. Short barrel, light gun, really painful to shoot, even for an adult.
You might also re-think the handgun thing.
If you're under 21, you can't buy a handgun from a dealer, but it is legal to buy one from a private party if you're 18 or older (go figure). Anyway, that's the federal law most people come up against. You might also have some state laws that bar what you want to do.
At Harbor Freight, you can get a microwave oven size safe for $60. Pop your handgun into that, and open the door every night as you go to bed.
Sleep tight.
If you choose a shotgun, it really does not make much difference what type of shot you have loaded at across-the-room distances. The shot does not spread much, and will be devastatingly effective. Few people survive being shot with a shotgun at close range. A good pheasant load is a very effective home defense load (up to ~7 yards). Now if your target is 30 yards out, it matters a lot what you shoot. At that range 00 buck performs very well. Birdshot, not so much.
I'd steer clear of anything with too short a barrel. We had a little Rossi 20 ga./.22 switch barrel job. Nobody would shoot the shotgun a second time. Short barrel, light gun, really painful to shoot, even for an adult.
You might also re-think the handgun thing.
If you're under 21, you can't buy a handgun from a dealer, but it is legal to buy one from a private party if you're 18 or older (go figure). Anyway, that's the federal law most people come up against. You might also have some state laws that bar what you want to do.
At Harbor Freight, you can get a microwave oven size safe for $60. Pop your handgun into that, and open the door every night as you go to bed.
Sleep tight.
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