California .223 carbine rifles

Which one should I buy

  • Kel Tec SU-16 Rifle

    Votes: 63 56.8%
  • Ruger Mini-14

    Votes: 29 26.1%
  • Robinson Arms M96 CA Recon Carbine

    Votes: 10 9.0%
  • FAB10 Based AR-15

    Votes: 9 8.1%

  • Total voters
    111
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Argo

Member
Joined
May 25, 2004
Messages
5
Location
Los Angeles, CA
As most of you California residents know our choices of .223 carbine rifles are very limited. I have been attempting to get genuine feedback from others who might own one of the following California legal beauties. So please give me your honest opinion on which one you think is the most reliable & accurate.

Kel Tec SU-16 Rifle
http://www.kel-tec.com/su-16_rifle.htm

Ruger Mini-14
http://www.ruger.com/Firearms/FAProdResults?function=famid&famid=24

Robinson Arms M96 CA Recon Carbine
http://www.robarm.com/m96_california_recon_carbine.htm

Atlantic Firearms CA Legal AR15
Receiver is machined specifically for a 10 round magazine that is fixed. Loads easily with stipper clips by opening the lower so there is no detachable magazine,
http://www.atlanticfirearms.com/_images/_FAB10RIFLE.jpg
 
I have looked into it as well....

Because I may one day be moving behind the Calicommie curtain.
I have fired the Ruger Mini-14 and it is OK, as long as you have reliable magazines and are not expecting precision accuracy. Frankly, the Ruger worked nice, is reported to be very rugged and has acceptable accuracy for most defensive needs.
The Robinson looks like it would be too easy to get a pistol grip at a gun show or through another source...so, it may be added to the list. It also looks rather challenging to shoot as is.
Not at all interested in that FAB thing. It is an abortion.
The SU-16 looks to be very interesting. Light, good ergos, reliable, accurate. It would be my choice for a CA Semi.
Jercamp45
 
I have the Mini-14 and the SU-16. Between the two, I prefer the SU-16. A few observations:

Mini 14:
--Very rugged. Gas port is oversized, as evidenced by flying brass in next area code, so it should function well. More metal than the SU-16, too, in case you roll over it with your truck.
--Shifting POI w/ hot barrel. I've cut my barrel down to 16.5", and it still shifts. It's pretty accurate, though. I get very tight I-shaped groups. Hmm.
--Mags are more expensive and harder to find than AR mags. PMI mags are the way to go (...cough...VEGAS...cough...).
--More aftermarket stuff available.
--Mike Knifong trigger job = better trigger than SU-16. www.perfectunion.com.

SU-16:
--More accurate than the Mini-14, w/o the hot barrel POI shift. This seals the deal for me.
--Plastic everything, except the bolt and barrel. Light, but prolly not a buttstroking kinda rifle.
--Folds in half, stock stores extra mag, forearm folds out into bipod. Gimmicks, if you ask me, but kinda cool.
--Easier to mount optics, like a Holosight.
--Faster mag changes w/ AR type mags. Easier to find mags, too.

Dunno about the other two rifles. The Robinson Arms is way too expensive for what it is. That's M1A moolah, and I'd much rather have that. The FAB10 has actually piqued my interest, if I could only get over my opposition in principle to its gelded nature.

I say get an SU-16 and have fun with it. ;)
 
Another vote for the SU-16.

WildAlaska may still have one left, that's where I got mine. :)
 
SU-16!

This really is a handy little carbine; lightweight and recoil is negligible.
 
To everyone who replied to this post so far. Thank you for you insights and votes. This is really helping my decision making process.

Q. Do any of you guys run a standard sling or tactical sling on your SU-16?
 
The SU-16 does not have any sling swivels, so it's kind of hard to put one on it. :(

Word is Kel-Tec is releasing new models that do have sling attachment points.
 
Thanks for the info Kevlarman.

To those of you that are voting on this poll. I am noticing the Robinson Arms M96 CA Recon Carbine is starting to get more votes then the Ruger Mini-14.

Anyone want to share there knowledge or experiences with the M96 Recon Carbine?
 
my su16b is drossed and on the way. Accurate, light weight, reliable, slick.
(m96 is awsome, but heavy, hard to get, and expensive)
 
I can only really comment on the mini14 since that is the only rifle I have. (I'm relatively new to shooting). I have a stainless-ranch model with the wood stock. The only modification I have done is to replace the flimsy flip-up rear-sight with an M1-carbine milled rear sight.

I have fired a friend's AR and I have only looked at the SU-16 in a gunshop. I have no experience with the m96.

Personally I really like the mini14 for the following reasons:

Its pretty rugged and simple. It field strips very easily and does not have too many small parts that could be easy to lose. The hardest part to get really clean is the backside of the gas-block. You do need at least 1 tool to pry the trigger guard open. With the wood stock, the rifle is a solid 7 lbs or so, and feels like you could really whack someone with it if you had to.

For me, it has been very reliable. It went through the 4-day rifle class at Frontsight without a hick-up (that was when it was pretty much brand new with only about 150 rnds through it). It happened to be pretty windy that weekend with lots of blowing dust & such.

I like the fact that its an "open-receiver" design which makes it very easy to diagnose and clear any malfunctions that might occur.

I have been lucky so far and have not had a magazine that it does not feed reliably from. The only issue I have is when using frangile ammo (which has a flat nose instead of a pointed nose). Occasionally, the flat nose of the frangible round will lodge against the face of the chamber instead of feeding properly. I have not had any issues with std. FMJ rounds. For CA, I have found the promag 10 round magazines to be very reliable so far.

As far as optics, if you are going to put a traditional scope on it, then go with the ranch model. Its recevier has ring mounts machined into it and it comes with 1" ruger rings. There are also lots of options for other style optics in the scout or traditional configuration. You will have to buy some sort of weaver-style rail adapter though. Ultimak makes a very nice forward scout mount that replaces the entier upper handguard.

Since I am a relatively new shooter and bought the rifle primarily for plinking/home-defense/urban shtf it is accurate enough for me. The mini can be made pretty accurate for not too much $$ if you're willing to put a little time and effort into it. Go to www.perfectunion.com They have a very active mini forum and discuss at length what they have done to accurize their rifles. The general consensus is that a muzzle brake/flash hider and a good bedding job will significantly improve a mini's accuracy. The other thing is the mini's front sight is big (which makes it durable & fast) but really hamper's accuracy at distance (though it might be me or my technique)

Since the mini has a conventional stock it will be easier to modify the LOP if you have short arms (the neutered-AR with collapsable stock would be the only eaiser option). Another nice thing is if I ever move out of state it will be really easy to put and "evil" pistol grip stock on it if I want.

The only thing I didn't like was the rear sight which I replaced.

I was able to buy mine for $525 + all the CA taxes & fees so the price is right around the SU16. I don't know too much about ARs; I don't know if you can build a FAB10 for that cheap or not.

I don't know anything about the M96. It looks awkward to shoot w/o the pistol grip. I'm suprised someone doesn't sell a conventional rifle stock adapter for it (though the market probably isn't very big).

I really don't see the FAB10-based ARs useful for anything but target shooting or plinking. They are generally more accurate than the mini but in an actual home defense/shtf situation, having to break the rifle open to reload seems like a very bad feature. I would rather take bolt/pump action .223 or an SKS over the FAB10 for any type of defensive situation since they are designed to load very quicky using a stripper clips or are still allowed to have detachable mags. Turners had a pump-action AK in .223 not too long ago but I don't know much about that particular rifle. The AR based rifle is a bit more complex to strip and clean and may be more sensitve to dirt/debris. Don't get me wrong, if the CA AWB ever goes away (or I can figure out how to legally purchase a "real" AR and keep it out of state) I will definitely be looking into an AR based rifle of my own.

The SU16 is very interesting and I would like to shoot one. I looked at one in the gunshop not too long ago. It was VERY light. If this is your first rifle that will make the recoil seem snappier than the heavier rifles. It will also seem less accurate from an unsupported position since it will be more sensitive to your body's movements. The 10 round magazines that it comes with are plastic/polymer though it supposedly accomodates AR mags. The front sight is also plastic but the su16b which is new will have an AR style metal front sight instead. The bolt is similar to the AR but uses a piston instead of the direct-impingment gas system so it should be more reliable but may still be more sensitive to dirt than the mini. The integral hand-guard/bipod is interesting but I wonder how durable that mechanisim is. I would hate to have my hand guards fall off at the wrong time. The latching mechanism for it was a bit difficut to operate. If I bought the rifle, I probably would not use the bipod feature at all. The other thing about the su16 is that the stock appears to be an integral part of the lower receiver so if the rifle doesn't fit you, I don't know how you would go about modifying it (or fixing it if you screwed it up).

just my opinions,
drc
 
I believe Kel-Tec will be selling the sling swivels as an accessory soon. I think it replaces existing screws or pins on the rifle. The new metal (aluminum, I think) sights, both front and rear, will also be available for sale, so you can replace the plastic ones that come stock.
 
Just bought an SU-16

Hey guys,

Can I shoot Mil 223 ammo in my SU-16. Manual says stick to 223 Rrem. What's you experience?
 
My vote is for the Ruger Mini-14. The Ranch model is the best as it has the ability to mount a scope (comes with rings) if you decide on adding one.

The Mini is based on a proven gas system based on the M1 and M14. While out of the box accuracy is not the best, it can be greatly improved for under $100. A Mike Knifong trigger job, the reduced size gas port bushings, a recoil buffer (mandatory if you want a scope), a Masen muzzle brake or whatever is legal in CA and a bedding job will give you decent accuracy out to at least 100 yards. With these mods, I am getting consistent 3-4" groups at 100 yds with the factory rear sight using factory ammo like UMC or Winchester 55gr FMJ Stuff.

The smallest of the gas port bushings in Mike's kit will stop the cross-country flight of cases and they will drop about 4-5 feet away once the small bushing is in. I use Masen 10-round mags and they work fine except for not holding the bolt open after the last round is ejected.

While the factory Mini stock is decent, it's a bit too short for me so my next mod will be a Hogue Overmolded stock. That stock is supposed to hold the action tighter without additional bedding work.

Adding a barrel stiffener will be a big help along with cutting the barrel back to 16.5".

I got my Mini for $479 at my gun shop but they are a bit cheaper at Wally-World but that's no help in CA.
 
I'll probably be set on fire and banned for saying this but here goes.

I like my FAB10 for what it is: an awesome plinker and great rifle for non-SHTF purposes. The mag thing? No big deal and it slows me down and makes me take better shots. Very accurate as well

Don't really like the Mini-14 or the SU16.

:)
 
I'll vote for the Mini-14 family. While I've got a few original Ruger 20rd mags, I use mostly 5 and 10 rd mags for most of my shooting. The gun goes bang every time I pull the trigger, is easy to take apart, and is rugged. It's not the most accurate gun in the world but shoots better on average than I can out to 200 yards especially under field conditions.
 
THe SU 16 is just so cool, plus you just gotta respect what KelTec is doing: bringing new, inexpensive, innovative firearms onto the market.
 
Urban Camo?

No contest! I'm a big believer in "Urban Camo" and looking like a harmless old man and his wife in a rusty old Chevy truck. When seen by others, including LEO's, the Mini-14 looks like a hunting gun. It leaves nothing to explain about "Hey, Officer, it really is legal here in CA even if you've never seen or heard of one before. Honest, you don't have to take it in to check it out!"

Some day, at some roadblock, while headed for my retreat that appearance might be very important to me and mine. The "persona" we'd have on would be Farmer John and his mousey wife, not Rambo and his current girlfriend, both dripping with with "bad-assed" guns and dressed in combat gear.

JMHO

GrayBear
 
There are several threads running about the Mini 14 right now.
As my user name suggests, I think they are a fine carbine.
New prices for a blue one here in the South are <$450.

It's a decent carbine, and can be made quite accurate without a lot of expense.
And, it does have a PC look to it. :rolleyes:
 
SU-16B

I am a heavy combat vet Vietnam conflict, mountains jungle, M-14 and M-16. Hated the early M-16 and it also killed many of my comrades due to malfunction. I started group called California Minutemen. While at a friends ranch along the Border he pulled out a SU-16b. I asked to shoot it. I fell in love with it right away. I got one. It fires well. Goes right through the border wall. Looks scary. Carries extra mags in the stock. Fits my old ar-15 or M-16 mags, and it folds into nothing. Many Minutemen now crry them from california to Texas and on the candadian border.
 
why the hell would anybody in their right minds buy a recon carbine? you cant even shoot it without holding wierd. i would go with the su-16 or mini-14
 
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